dino experiment

[Pants]

Its really hard to tell from those photos. Its not even clear to me that those are cells and not debris. I'll see if I can get some better photos myself next week and update my website (maybe some movies).

The tank is so young there is a good chance its your normal diatom bloom. Do you see lots of things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaeodactylum_tricornutum ?

The small single celled thing is probably a ciliate. It is probably eating the algae. Can you get the brown stuff in that shot in focus?


dano_b There is a good chance the dinos died in shipment and so all I see are the other stuff. I feel like if the bloom were green you wouldn't have thought dino and it would definitely seem odd for it to be diatoms in such an old tank. I'll let the sample recover a bit and see if anything makes itself obvious.

 

[dano_b]

Its really hard to tell from those photos. Its not even clear to me that those are cells and not debris. I'll see if I can get some better photos myself next week and update my website (maybe some movies).

The tank is so young there is a good chance its your normal diatom bloom. Do you see lots of things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaeodactylum_tricornutum ?

The small single celled thing is probably a ciliate. It is probably eating the algae. Can you get the brown stuff in that shot in focus?


dano_b There is a good chance the dinos died in shipment and so all I see are the other stuff. I feel like if the bloom were green you wouldn't have thought dino and it would definitely seem odd for it to be diatoms in such an old tank. I'll let the sample recover a bit and see if anything makes itself obvious.

I agree with you. thanks for checking again.

 

[Pants]

Can we view the results of the survey? curious.

I've only got 2 responses so far so its not terribly interesting. Hopefully we'll get enough eventually to come to some conclusions.


Randyp79 any chance you could mail me some? I have some photos and video to share that could help but haven't yet figured out the best way to put it online. But I'll try to get something else for you to compare to soon.

 

[Pants]

If you go to http://www.youtube.com/user/YorickSanchez/feed You will find videos I've uploaded of two of the 4 common dinos people get in blooms.

The other two are Gambierdiscus and the tiny dino I haven't identified yet. Gambierdiscus is closely related to Ostreopsis but does look a bit different under the scope so I'll need to make a video of it

I think the video makes the shape of the cells more obvious than the still photos I've been taking so I'm going to move to video rather than photos. I'll add these videos to my website eventually where they will also have more text pointing out some characteristics you can use to compare to what you have in your aquarium.

 

[DBSAM]

I sent you three samples from my sump on Monday.

If you need anymore info, please feel free to PM.

Thanks.

 

[Squidmotron]

Pants,

Since you are the expert here, I was wondering if you knew the answer to this question. I assume this is pretty measurable experimentally....

Any idea approximately how long any of these species of photosynthetic dinoflagellates can survive without light and recover?

..

There are pretty obvious and practical applications to this question.

 

[Pants]

I haven't done an experiment but I can say that I've had samples in the mail for over a month (so in the dark in stagnant water at the wrong temp) arrive with the dinos happy as clams.

The Gambierdiscus seems to fair least well in shipment but it is also thought to be cyst forming (no strong evidence as far as I am aware though). Ostreopsis, Amphidinium, and the lil unnnamed dino all seem to do fine in the mail. The small dino which I still haven't IDed seems the most vigorous grower and is also the most mucousy - more clumps of jelly than strings of mucous.

I suspect the lights out methods works sometimes because people get their parameters in order during the lights out period. I don't think it will work well if nothing else changes.

 

[Squidmotron]

That's unfortunate. I assumed that a lights out period long enough would eventually kill them because longer I leave the lights out, the more they diminish and the longer it takes for them grow back to full size. I assumed there would be some length of time where they would just die out.

Another question just because I can't shut up about this.

What exact nutrients do some of these species of dinos need to survive? They seem to require fewer nitrates and phosphates (I know they require some), and I noticed a strong correlation between dino outbreaks and people dosing carbon in their aquariums (or using biopellets). Is this a real connection? I also am suspicious that my using the "reef" versions of saltwater mix with the extra vitamins enhances them. When I switch to the regular stuff, they seem to not grow back as mightily. What other trace minerals do they like?

Too many questions, I know. Sorry. All that's on the internet is either aquarium mythology, really simple science, or scientific papers too complex for me. There's nothing in between.

 

[Pants]

There certainly will be a length of time where they will die off, I just most everything else in your tank will die first. I think lights out should be regarded as a way of reducing numbers while you get other things in check.

They do need nitrates and phosphates. They also need vitamin b1 b12 biotin some trace metals like selenium. You need to remember that the photosynthetic endosymbionts of your corals, clams, etc (zooxanethellae) are dinoflagellates. So anything you are adding or has been added to your salt to help out the zooxs have the potential to feed your pest dinos as well.

I hadn't noticed a carbon dosing connection myself but I too ad noticed the low nitrates and phosphates and "richer" salts. I suspect the nitrates/phosphates connection is along the lines of other algae outcompete dinos in high nitrate/phosphate environments.

 

[arom]

Pants,

So theoretically if you have a system where you can achieve ZERO nitrates and ZERO phosphates it will die out?

 

[Pants]

Absolutely. But do remember that your test kits don't measure low amounts. Don't interpret the lowest reading as a zero.

 

[burnah]

hey there. i posted on this thread earlier and sent an example to Pants. it was identified (ostreopsis) and after that i started with two measured to kill my dinos:

i started dosing microbe lift special blend, a supposed photosynthetic bacteria mix that should compete with the dinos on surfaces where they feed.

my lfs sold me a substance they call ALGERON, they claim it kills all kinds of algae in marine tanks. as my sps were already killed by the dinos i thought, why not try it as i had little to lose. i used 200ml over 8 days, and the dinos receded even before the bottle was empty.

ive been dinofree judged by the naked eye for some time now, and according to the lfs they have success with this chemical with lots of customers. they have it bottled themselves by some chemical company, i am not sure whats in there. i have little bit left if anyone was into chemical analysis, as they sell it in glass bottles and do not ship it might be interesting to see whats in there..

 

[t4zalews]

So after restarting my tank due to Dino's as said earlier in this thread, I have them again. AWESOME. Looks like some of the strain survived the transfer. Just my luck. Funny thing is, my corals are doing just fine except for the algae growing on my birdsnest...funny how they seem to get infected the worst.

Been reading about Marin Fauna Algae X and said, I'll give it a whirl. Know that I've dosed and done extreme treatments before for Dino's I'm pretty fearless in what I know I can put in my tank for stuff not to die. Started my first dose last night, and today starts my 3 day no light cycle. I will provide pictures of the progress and anything worth noticing. I dosed ~12mL, recommended dosage was 5mL per 100L, I roughly estimated about 70 gallons of water, taking into consideration rock/sand displacement. Which comes out to roughly 250L of water. I've read its better to be lower than higher in terms of dosing as high dosing can have negative results. Til next post....

 

[t4zalews]

Ok so day 3 of lights out and just turned the main lights back on. I'll be running them for 3 hours until I'm done dosing, or happy with what I see. I dosed again last night after 2 days after the first dose. I dosed probably more close to 16mL this time. These pictures are with me doing absolutely nothing. I did not blow anything off, I literally turned the lights on and took pictures. Didn't even clean the glass. You'll notice a nice white sandbed and the powerhead seams to be clear of any dinos. I noticed escpecially on the powerhead that the algae that was on there is now a clearish color. If you've ever had bryopsis, like I have had, when dosing mag to kill it the bryopsis turns this same color before completely hindering away. I'll say it looks great, but the funny thing with dinos is this is what it always looks like after a 3 day light out period. The real test is what happens when the lights are on. I will post pictures in a couple days to track progress.

I did go ahead and blow off the rocks and powerheads and clean the glass. Fingers crossed.

...don't mind the molt of my peppermint shrimp in the powerhead

 

[sahin]

Dude I restarted 2 times because of Dinos. Hope this works for you.

 

[t4zalews]

Dude I restarted 2 times because of Dinos. Hope this works for you.

Me too. If this stuff kills off dino, it would be liquid gold. Next update is tomorrow.

 

[t4zalews]

Not seeing any dinos in the tank. I went ahead and cleaned the powerhead and pulled some of the hair algae out. Lights are now on for 4 hours. I'll check after the 4 hours and see if I see any new brown stuff and bubbles. So far it seems to be working. If I dont see any algae or bubbles I'll ramp up the lights to 6 hours tomorrow.

 

[BigKahuna]

Anyone try QFI DinoXal? I see it for sale in Europe and was thinking of importing a bottle. Part of me thinks it might be just h2o2 but then again they'd put it in an opaque bottle.

http://www.h2oaquatics.co.uk/additives-1/aiptasia-and-pest-control/qfi-dinoxal-250ml

 

[Stopsignhank]

T$,

Thanks man! I have dino and restarted and sure enough they came back. I saw that you tried the Ultra Algae X so I thought I would give it a try. Just ordered it tonight.

Thanks

 

[t4zalews]

T$,

Thanks man! I have dino and restarted and sure enough they came back. I saw that you tried the Ultra Algae X so I thought I would give it a try. Just ordered it tonight.

Thanks

I'm still dosing as I am not 100% convinced yet. Dino's are very tricky. But I am happy you found my experience useful. Please tell us how your experience goes.