dino experiment

[bills tank]

I've had the nasty brown jelly strings in my reef for a few weeks now and I'm about to try the peroxide tto get rid of it but wanted to make sure first that it won't disturb my yellow sea cucumber ? Nobody has brought up dosing this with sea cucumber s in their tanks and it just worries me that if it does something to the cucumber that it can release its toxins and wipe out my twenty plus year old reef tank . Please let me know if anyone has expierance with peroxide dosing and sea cucumber s so I can start my battle that came out of nowhere as I haven't added any rock corals or anything but a fish but that was after the dinos appeared in my tank . Thanks for any input

 

[brandon429]

hi bills

in our giant thread on peroxide in the nanos forum we have no data on cucs pls let me know if you choose to

I predict a small dose will not immediately kill them if you want to see our thread in the nanos forum on peroxide its massive. pico reef pest algae challenge thread.
B

 

[brandon429]

I would simply qt the cuc, or, test him in another container to baseline peroxide tolerance. no need to risk a whole tank, but not taking direct action on an invader this potent is more of a risk imo.

 

[t4zalews]

I'm happy (not that people have dinos) that this thread is still alive.

My tank is almost completely rid of dinos finally. I did only one thing. I slowed down my turnover rate through my sump.

It sounds crazy but I went from 600gph to 200gph maybe less in my 65g tank. The dino's kept on receding and receding. This is the only thing I did. I even increased my lighting schedule. I've done a 14 day blackout before and that didnt work. No filter sock, no water changes.

Tank hasnt looked this good in years.

 

[yeldarbj]

Great news. Can you tell me us what is going on in your sump? Skimmer, fuge, carbon, gfo, ??? Do you think longer dwell time is the difference?

 

[Squidmotron]

I'm happy (not that people have dinos) that this thread is still alive.

My tank is almost completely rid of dinos finally. I did only one thing. I slowed down my turnover rate through my sump.

It sounds crazy but I went from 600gph to 200gph maybe less in my 65g tank. The dino's kept on receding and receding. This is the only thing I did. I even increased my lighting schedule. I've done a 14 day blackout before and that didnt work. No filter sock, no water changes.

Tank hasnt looked this good in years.

I thought I'd heard it all when it comes to the ongoing war between good and dinos, but this is a new one.

Did you throttle back your pump?

Anyone have any theories on why this would be the case?

Very interesting.

Back when I had dinos, the cleaning service accidentally tripped partial power on my tank and my pump was out for 12 hours. Didn't think much of it, but my dinos were noticeably pulled back from the previous days. Never tried any experiments related to that.

 

[t4zalews]

Lost in this thread is all my attempts at killing dinos..sometimes I thought I had won but low and behold they would come back.

I have an ehiem 1262 that was feeding the tank and two reactors..I got the new intake nozzle to convert it into a 1260 that dropped the GPH and then throttles back the pump. I have customized return so this was easy. I have a RD 135 skimmer which is way more than enough for this tank, so for me to have organics issues was blowing my mind.

I remember back to the time before I had dinos, and I remembered switching the pump I had to one with more GPH. I figured why not try really slowing down my SUMP turnover so that the skimmer has longer dwell time with the water. Crazy enough, after two weeks the tank showed major improvement.

Another thing I noticed was that my tank was producing green algae on the glass again, this NEVER happened when I had dinos. I wonder if my nitrates went up..I'll have to check. I read somewhere that increasing nitrates helped out one person with their dino issue, I even bought some potassium nitrate (salt petre) to start dosing my tank, but the dino issue is now gone. I'll check my nitrates today to see if they went up at all.

 

[Squidmotron]

I figured why not try really slowing down my SUMP turnover so that the skimmer has longer dwell time with the water. Crazy enough, after two weeks the tank showed major improvement.

That is truly interesting. Hmm.

Another thing I noticed was that my tank was producing green algae on the glass again, this NEVER happened when I had dinos. I wonder if my nitrates went up..I'll have to check. I read somewhere that increasing nitrates helped out one person with their dino issue, I even bought some potassium nitrate (salt petre) to start dosing my tank, but the dino issue is now gone. I'll check my nitrates today to see if they went up at all.

This is not just one person. Back when I had dinos, I scoured the internet and read every thread on the subject. This was frequently the case. And I would say it's true of myself as well. I no longer fear the green algae and consider a little of it a sign of a healthy tank.

I believe that if it were as easy as reducing nutrients using normal methods, everyone would easily beat dinos.

According to research during my scouring the internet phase, mixotrophic dinos reach their peak in ocean cycles after specialist algae begin to die back because they utilize two metabolic strategies. They makes them less competitive w/ abundant food present because they bear the metabolic cost of maintaining multiple nutritional strategies. When there are higher inorganic nutrients, specialists (i.e., autotrophic algae) outcompete and dominate dinos and the presence of those dinos becomes more scarce.

 

[t4zalews]

I believe that if it were as easy as reducing nutrients using normal methods, everyone would easily beat dinos.

I think its more than just reducing nutrients. The common case with dinos is zero nitrates and low phosphate. I think each tank has its own reason for having dinos, so there is not a specific treatment that will cure every case. Some people have had success with lights out, raising Ph, dosing hydrogen peroxide, ozone, filter socks, syphoning, lack of water changes, etc. For me, the only thing that worked was increasing the dwell time for my skimmer in my sump.

 

[Pants]

I think each tank has its own reason for having dinos

As well as at least 3 very different species of dinos. Amphidinium, Gambierdiscus and Ostreopsis, and another tiny dino I haven't identified. These aren't even closely related dinos. Its like treating your mouse infestation the same as a bear problem.

 

[t4zalews]

Just tested my nitrate with a salifert test kit and zero nitrates. So raising nitrates wasn't the solution for me...

 

[Squidmotron]

I think its more than just reducing nutrients. The common case with dinos is zero nitrates and low phosphate. I think each tank has its own reason for having dinos, so there is not a specific treatment that will cure every case. Some people have had success with lights out, raising Ph, dosing hydrogen peroxide, ozone, filter socks, syphoning, lack of water changes, etc. For me, the only thing that worked was increasing the dwell time for my skimmer in my sump.

Yes. I'd never even heard of the concept of trying to increase "dwell time" before. Or what that even is. If dinos ever return, I may give it a shot.

 

[yeldarbj]

I think its more than just reducing nutrients. The common case with dinos is zero nitrates and low phosphate. I think each tank has its own reason for having dinos, so there is not a specific treatment that will cure every case. Some people have had success with lights out, raising Ph, dosing hydrogen peroxide, ozone, filter socks, syphoning, lack of water changes, etc. For me, the only thing that worked was increasing the dwell time for my skimmer in my sump.

Did Pants or anyone else ID your variety? I've tried just about everything too without any long term success. I even restarted the whole tank - broke it down, bleached and acid washed the rock, new sand, new plumbing, completely overhauled the sump, and added fresh live rock to the sanitized rock. After the restart, I've had about 5 fun months of reefing and now I'm back with the same dinos again. Lights out periods are about the only thing that slows them down, but they also always come back from it.

Pants previously ID'd mine as gambierdiscus toxicus.

After the restart, I added chaeto and red flame algae to a new fuge section in my sump. Both grew great for a few months, then sort of stopped growing. Shortly thereafter, I started seeing signs of dinos. For the most part, phosphates stayed pretty low, usually reading 0 on a Hanna tester. Nitrates also were 0.

I just started an upflow ATS a couple weeks ago to see if I could grow some green algae. It is starting to produce some, but not a lot. There is definitely a lack of green algae growing in the tank. I started dosing some KNO3 to increase nitrates with the hope of establishing some green algae in the tank- no luck yet. Recent tests show phosphate at 0.03 and nitrates at about 5 ppm - both are close to what I'm targeting in an effort to get algae.

I do think there is hope with green algae competing with the dinos. For me at least, I've never had any algae issues while the dinos are present.

 

[nynick]

As well as at least 3 very different species of dinos. Amphidinium, Gambierdiscus and Ostreopsis, and another tiny dino I haven't identified. These aren't even closely related dinos. Its like treating your mouse infestation the same as a bear problem.

Thousands actually....if not tens of thousands....that we know of.

Ich is a Dinoflagellate for example and so is Marine Velvet. Symbiotic "algae" in corals are Dinos.

They come in a lot of varieties as I recently found out. I am still not sure if what I had was a Dino or a Cyano but between them there is quite a bit to chose from.

Best way to get rid of all but a few types of algae is to fully comprehend that the algae isn't the problem and stop fighting it. It is actually the solution. Find the actual problem and the algae will take care of itself.

 

[Pants]

Thousands actually....if not tens of thousands....that we know of.

Ich is a Dinoflagellate for example and so is Marine Velvet. Symbiotic "algae" in corals are Dinos.

I'm a dinoflagellate phylogeneticist. I've been getting samples of people's aquarium dino blooms and have identified 3 major groups. That's all I was referring to. You are right that there are many more that could potentially cause problems.

 

[t4zalews]

Yes. I'd never even heard of the concept of trying to increase "dwell time" before. Or what that even is. If dinos ever return, I may give it a shot.

I've never had my strain evaluated. I too restarted the whole tank with new rock/sand etc only to find them return after a couple months.

The "dwell time" I was referring to relates to how much your skimmer can process at a time. Ideally you want to match your sump turnover with your skimmer GPH to make it most efficient. This is only for in sump skimmers as with external skimmers, they are fed with a pump that is rated for the size of skimmer. I was running my return at approx 600 gph but my skimmer pump is only rated at 300. I probably have my turnover now at 200 gph, once again these are guesses but there is very little turbulence in the sump than before.
The theory behind this is when you match up your return to the skimmer feed, 100 percent of the tank water is "skimmed" each hour. With my turnover being twice as much as rated, I figure I was only skimming 50% of my water every hour. I'm not a scientist but that's what I took in when reading about sump turnover

From my research, the recommended SUMP turnover is 3x-5x. I was running at about 10x. This includes the idea that you should not rely on your return pump for IN TANK turnover.

 

[nynick]

I'm a dinoflagellate phylogeneticist. I've been getting samples of people's aquarium dino blooms and have identified 3 major groups. That's all I was referring to. You are right that there are many more that could potentially cause problems.

Could have used you a few months back! Did you ever encounter one that looks like a camel colored cashmere sweater exploded in your tank?

I still have no clue what it was....

 

[Squidmotron]

From my research, the recommended SUMP turnover is 3x-5x. I was running at about 10x. This includes the idea that you should not rely on your return pump for IN TANK turnover.

Cool. I have now Googled some things on it.

That definitely gives me some ideas. My return pump produces huge turnover. It is way unnecessary for my size tank. I could probably throttle it back if I run into issues again.

I mean my skimmer seems to pull out some gunk, but hmm... So all of that excess gph may be a waste I see.

 

[Squidmotron]

I'm a dinoflagellate phylogeneticist. I've been getting samples of people's aquarium dino blooms and have identified 3 major groups. That's all I was referring to. You are right that there are many more that could potentially cause problems.

You've probably been asked this about a million times, but... of those 3...:

Any idea what they eat?
Any idea how to kill them?

I'm sure at some level they require the same basic nutrients, but it's amazing how they survive. I took some out and squirted it in a plastic cup and just watched the slime. It lived for a long time.

 

[Mike S]

Interesting observation about the green algae on your glass. I've upgrade my tank back in August and in the October/November timeframe dinos made an appearance along with cyano. Peroxide had not effect on them. Blacking out the tank would temporarily address the issue, but they would reappear after 2 weeks. All during this period I would get the usually brown dusting of algae on my glass and need to clean it every few days. A few weeks ago I blacked out my tank again and this time stopped water changes and too my biopellets off line. I also bumped up the flow. After two weeks there was no sign of the cyano. Some dino's did appear, but they remained in check.

About two week ago I started dosing aminos. In additional to noticing some of my SPS starting to color up, I started seeing a green dusting on my glass vs. the brown that I had been seeing for months. The dinos are also no where to be found. I'm suspected that my tank was nutrient poor and the dinos were taking advantage of it and are now being out competed. I'm curious to see if the cheato that has not been growing in my sump for a few months starts to do better.