Dinoflagellates.
- Thread starter DNA
- Start date
Mikefromaz
New member
The tank is a 29g with a 20g sump. I measured the water to be 42g. Between the tank and fuge there is about 30lb.live rock with 30lb.Arogonite oolite sand in the tank only. That gives me approx. 1 1/2 in. Of sand. Water velocity is 10x/ hr with opposing feed jets for turbulence. The vexing part is other than the sand being covered by whatever and the fuge stuff covered with crud the tank is amazingly clear. Oh.....one other thing. This growth is confined to the sand only in the display tank. I just did a double treatment of chemo clean for some obvious cyano. That seems to have worked but it didnt touch the other stuff. Dinos? Im sure I don't know but whatever they are they are durable.
SurlyT
Member
Well, the low-light/Algae X routine helped temporarily, but the dinos seem to be coming back slowly and I'm back only up to 5 hrs/day of full light.
Here's a weird question. It occurred to me recently that I never had dino problems when I had stronger lighting (3 x 400W 20K Radiums on a standard 180). My rework last summer not only included re-aquascaping but also downshifting to 3 x 250W 20K Radiums with some LED actinics at the same time. My dino problems started shortly thereafter, and I always assumed it was due to nutrients released by thrashing around in the sand. But lately I've noticed that the dino growth always begins on the sandbed, then begins to move up the rocks - but it always seems lighter at the top. Is there any reason to think that going back to the higher light of 400W bulbs will reduce their population by "cooking" them?
Also, I've been running an algae scrubber for over 2 weeks now and have seen almost NO algae growth in it. What "fertilizers" are people using to raise nutrient levels?
Here's a weird question. It occurred to me recently that I never had dino problems when I had stronger lighting (3 x 400W 20K Radiums on a standard 180). My rework last summer not only included re-aquascaping but also downshifting to 3 x 250W 20K Radiums with some LED actinics at the same time. My dino problems started shortly thereafter, and I always assumed it was due to nutrients released by thrashing around in the sand. But lately I've noticed that the dino growth always begins on the sandbed, then begins to move up the rocks - but it always seems lighter at the top. Is there any reason to think that going back to the higher light of 400W bulbs will reduce their population by "cooking" them?
Also, I've been running an algae scrubber for over 2 weeks now and have seen almost NO algae growth in it. What "fertilizers" are people using to raise nutrient levels?
Mikefromaz
New member
Oddly enough I have never had dino problems before. My tank stats without running down the list are textbook perfect. I feed my single damsel and three snails in my 42g reef a pinch of food the size of a flat Aspirin once a day. Additionally I have a Corallife 125 skimmer, a gfo reactor run purigen and carbon and do weekly water changes. So where are these dinos coming from? The only thing which.is truly new to all of this are the LED 's.
DNA
New member
Burnah / Martin
It's the side effects of those chemicals we would like to be without.
Coming out with something effective against dinos and leaving the sps intact seems to be difficult.
As with Algae-X in my tank it was basically a tank killer in my case.
Dinos on a small scale we can live with and I think there are a lot of tanks that way.
The tank owners may notice some brown dust like blankets or strings, but don't have a clue or don't even care about it.
It's the side effects of those chemicals we would like to be without.
Coming out with something effective against dinos and leaving the sps intact seems to be difficult.
As with Algae-X in my tank it was basically a tank killer in my case.
Dinos on a small scale we can live with and I think there are a lot of tanks that way.
The tank owners may notice some brown dust like blankets or strings, but don't have a clue or don't even care about it.
DNA
New member
Surly
I mentioned it before that my dinos clearly favored a range of light intensity levels.
Their density were the highest in half shadows, with lower numbers in the full shades and were my 3x250W MH were strong. I think they will just seek out and settle in those spots as every tank will have a lot of them.
The dinos seem to outcompete other algae, but importing an established algae scrubber and a huge ball of macro algae is something I'd like to see someone try.
I mentioned it before that my dinos clearly favored a range of light intensity levels.
Their density were the highest in half shadows, with lower numbers in the full shades and were my 3x250W MH were strong. I think they will just seek out and settle in those spots as every tank will have a lot of them.
The dinos seem to outcompete other algae, but importing an established algae scrubber and a huge ball of macro algae is something I'd like to see someone try.
Mikefromaz
New member
I do have a question. One thing I do see with this brown invasion is that the sandbed seems to clear overnight, getting progressively worse as the day (lights?) progress. Is this typical of dinos? Every morning I get a false sense that "today" might be the turning point. It does seem like the crud either dies back overnight or the stuff retreats under the sand until morning. Familiar anyone?
Adrnalnrsh
New member
90 gallon display/30g sump
SWC 160
Lots of Seachem Matrix (not carbon)
100 lbs of live rock roughly
7-8 small fish
MaxCap 180
Water Changes throughout this was 20% every 1-2 weeks.
I wanted to share with everyone my recent bout with Dino's.
So....
My Nitrates were finally down to <1ppm and phosphates ~0.04. My tank was previously overstocked and I had been running biopellets to help with the nutrients. However my PH was constantly low ~7.8 - barely ever making it over 8.0. My organics in my tank were high (obviously since the presence of cyano) and my corals weren't happy. I decided to add Rox Carbon (never ran GAC on this tank). After 24 hours of Rox carbon my tank started to look great - PH started to go into the 8.1/8.2 range as well. My Monti's appeared the worse and they started to actually repair themselves (encrusting monti's had tissue that receded in the middle of them) and color up. Of course the Rox carbon was a temporary fix as it exhausts in a short amount of time.
Right before I added Rox I removed a medium size hippo tang (4-5 inches) and a couple of smaller fish to help with lowering my organics. At this point I knew I just had to play the waiting game for things to get back to normal. (Had low Nitrates/Phosphate before this, but knew my DOC's were possibly a cause to my problems).
My T5's were all a year old (8x54w Tek Light) and I decided to replace 4 bulbs (out of 8). 2 Coral Plus, 1 Aquablue special and 1 Pure Actinic. This was a drastic coloration change as I replaced 1 fiji pink and 3 blue plus.
Shortly after, my Corals were getting better and cyano was manageable, but I started to notice "brown algae" growing on the upper back glass, powerheads, frag racks but not really on the bare bottom or the rocks. My nitrates were < 1 (0.2) and my phosphate at around 0.08. My first reaction was that my new T5's and their spectrum (much warmer) were the cause, so I cut back the amount of time I was running the two Coral+'s as well as raised my light a few more inches and it at first seemed to help slow the growth but my glass and frag racks were still getting covered. I had to clean my front,side and black glass a lot.
Once I realized it wasn't getting better and that my cyano was actually starting to get worse also (GAC most likely exhausted - this was the 30 day point), I knew GAC (Rox) wasn't going to compensate (unless I constantly changed it out) and that something else was the matter. I went ahead and replaced my GAC with a fresh 2 cups) and I decided to take my biopellets offline, as I figured at this point with the smaller amount of fish and their size that BP is probably overkill plus it could be increasing the amount of "ogranics" in the tank. After taking that offline my PH began to hang out around 8.3 with the lights on. Dino's were still a problem at this point, Cyano getting a bit better but still existent. I had also been dosing trace elements which I decided to stop.
So after a month and a half of all this I can see my corals are doing great but there was cyano and dino's present still. Just the corals on the frag racks were getting dino's growing on them.... At this point, I hadn't lost a coral so I never actually went into panic mode. I began to wonder, hmmm what else could be the matter, the dino's and cyano were not completely out of control, but ugly and annoying.
After a few days of just waiting. My wife comes to me and says, "ugh, the stupid water jugs take forever to fill up" (we make RO water for drinking). Use to take 30-45 minutes to fill up (5 gallon water jugs) and now its taking 1.5 to 2 hours. I think to myself, "uh, yeah that's bad". I go and look at my MaxCap 180 and notice my PSI is at 20'ish and should normally be up near 60psi. I bypass my sediment cartridge first and no luck. I bypass my carbon block and BAM the PSI goes back to normal. I check my TDS on my RO and DI's cartridges and I was pushing 4-5ppm TDS into my (RODI) reservoir which I used for my ATO buckets and my water change water.
Replaced all my filters for my Maxcap (mid March) accept for my RO membranes. Cleaned my ATO buckets as well as my Brute trashcan reservoir.
Anyhow, since then my dino's are just about gone (definitely not progressing) after a few water changes and scrubbing.
One thing I noticed was I didn't have any coraline algae growing for quite some time. Since then I am starting to see it in new places.
SWC 160
Lots of Seachem Matrix (not carbon)
100 lbs of live rock roughly
7-8 small fish
MaxCap 180
Water Changes throughout this was 20% every 1-2 weeks.
I wanted to share with everyone my recent bout with Dino's.
So....
My Nitrates were finally down to <1ppm and phosphates ~0.04. My tank was previously overstocked and I had been running biopellets to help with the nutrients. However my PH was constantly low ~7.8 - barely ever making it over 8.0. My organics in my tank were high (obviously since the presence of cyano) and my corals weren't happy. I decided to add Rox Carbon (never ran GAC on this tank). After 24 hours of Rox carbon my tank started to look great - PH started to go into the 8.1/8.2 range as well. My Monti's appeared the worse and they started to actually repair themselves (encrusting monti's had tissue that receded in the middle of them) and color up. Of course the Rox carbon was a temporary fix as it exhausts in a short amount of time.
Right before I added Rox I removed a medium size hippo tang (4-5 inches) and a couple of smaller fish to help with lowering my organics. At this point I knew I just had to play the waiting game for things to get back to normal. (Had low Nitrates/Phosphate before this, but knew my DOC's were possibly a cause to my problems).
My T5's were all a year old (8x54w Tek Light) and I decided to replace 4 bulbs (out of 8). 2 Coral Plus, 1 Aquablue special and 1 Pure Actinic. This was a drastic coloration change as I replaced 1 fiji pink and 3 blue plus.
Shortly after, my Corals were getting better and cyano was manageable, but I started to notice "brown algae" growing on the upper back glass, powerheads, frag racks but not really on the bare bottom or the rocks. My nitrates were < 1 (0.2) and my phosphate at around 0.08. My first reaction was that my new T5's and their spectrum (much warmer) were the cause, so I cut back the amount of time I was running the two Coral+'s as well as raised my light a few more inches and it at first seemed to help slow the growth but my glass and frag racks were still getting covered. I had to clean my front,side and black glass a lot.
Once I realized it wasn't getting better and that my cyano was actually starting to get worse also (GAC most likely exhausted - this was the 30 day point), I knew GAC (Rox) wasn't going to compensate (unless I constantly changed it out) and that something else was the matter. I went ahead and replaced my GAC with a fresh 2 cups) and I decided to take my biopellets offline, as I figured at this point with the smaller amount of fish and their size that BP is probably overkill plus it could be increasing the amount of "ogranics" in the tank. After taking that offline my PH began to hang out around 8.3 with the lights on. Dino's were still a problem at this point, Cyano getting a bit better but still existent. I had also been dosing trace elements which I decided to stop.
So after a month and a half of all this I can see my corals are doing great but there was cyano and dino's present still. Just the corals on the frag racks were getting dino's growing on them.... At this point, I hadn't lost a coral so I never actually went into panic mode. I began to wonder, hmmm what else could be the matter, the dino's and cyano were not completely out of control, but ugly and annoying.
After a few days of just waiting. My wife comes to me and says, "ugh, the stupid water jugs take forever to fill up" (we make RO water for drinking). Use to take 30-45 minutes to fill up (5 gallon water jugs) and now its taking 1.5 to 2 hours. I think to myself, "uh, yeah that's bad". I go and look at my MaxCap 180 and notice my PSI is at 20'ish and should normally be up near 60psi. I bypass my sediment cartridge first and no luck. I bypass my carbon block and BAM the PSI goes back to normal. I check my TDS on my RO and DI's cartridges and I was pushing 4-5ppm TDS into my (RODI) reservoir which I used for my ATO buckets and my water change water.
Replaced all my filters for my Maxcap (mid March) accept for my RO membranes. Cleaned my ATO buckets as well as my Brute trashcan reservoir.
Anyhow, since then my dino's are just about gone (definitely not progressing) after a few water changes and scrubbing.
One thing I noticed was I didn't have any coraline algae growing for quite some time. Since then I am starting to see it in new places.
Last edited:
SurlyT
Member
I understand, but I've already lost more in corals than 3 bulbs will cost me. If it reduces the dino population to something I can live with, it'll buy me some time to keep me from nuking the tank or getting out of the hobby altogether. I'm going to try it.
Sorry, I didn't remember that you'd said that. There are a number of dino threads here, some of them very long, and what you read tends to blur together after a while. At least for me.
I don't have access to an established ATS but have ordered a couple of macro algae with which to load my relatively new one.
Will provide updates if any of this helps me out. If not, please look for a custom 180 acrylic tank for sale here in a few months...
SurlyT
Member
Increased lighting has only made the outbreak worse. Not all that surprising, but it was worth a shot.
The algae scrubber has been very slow to get any growth going, but adding some chaeto and ulva helped and it's filled in nicely. Can't really see any difference in the tank, though, since the Ostreopsis has such a stranglehold on the ecosystem.
For lack of any better ideas, this weekend I'm removing going to attempt a full-on assault that will begin with a serious physical extraction. I plan to remove all the sand, dip all rocks in freshwater, scrape all surfaces and swap out as much of the total system water as possible (60-70%). Hoping this will give me a leg up on them, I'm then going to run another round of Ultra Algae X with little to no lighting, which will take probably 2 weeks. Will probably plumb in an old UV sterilizer to kill off the free-swimming buggers as well. Then another major water change to pull out as much of the final die-off nutrients as possible.
I realize doing all this will undoubtedly cause a full tank cycle, but I literally don't have much to lose at this point. I'm writing off pretty much everything except my fish, which I'll relocate to a temporary home while doing all this.
The algae scrubber has been very slow to get any growth going, but adding some chaeto and ulva helped and it's filled in nicely. Can't really see any difference in the tank, though, since the Ostreopsis has such a stranglehold on the ecosystem.
For lack of any better ideas, this weekend I'm removing going to attempt a full-on assault that will begin with a serious physical extraction. I plan to remove all the sand, dip all rocks in freshwater, scrape all surfaces and swap out as much of the total system water as possible (60-70%). Hoping this will give me a leg up on them, I'm then going to run another round of Ultra Algae X with little to no lighting, which will take probably 2 weeks. Will probably plumb in an old UV sterilizer to kill off the free-swimming buggers as well. Then another major water change to pull out as much of the final die-off nutrients as possible.
I realize doing all this will undoubtedly cause a full tank cycle, but I literally don't have much to lose at this point. I'm writing off pretty much everything except my fish, which I'll relocate to a temporary home while doing all this.
Albert184445
New member
does anyone with dinoflagellates run uv sterilizers? the owner of my lfs told me that it did the job on the display tank
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I finally gave up because of dinoflagellates. ATSs will not work, as the dinoflagellates are capable of completely killing the filamentous algae that grow on them--I've tried a few times. Even transferring tanks didn't work. I tried transferring fish only and still ended up with them. Quarantine tanks with fish only ended up with them. Finally just quit, sadly enough. Didn't bother trying to identify them, though they released a very distinct smell--they always smelled like chlorine bleach when I removed them en masse. The tank was never right the second they appeared and I fought them for well over a year.
DNA
New member
That's sad Amphiprion and there are many reefers that have gone that way.
---
What is needed is funding for proper scientists to research, come clear with the facts and move reefers away from the countless and mostly miss methods of no results. Years have passed and we are still fumbling in the dark.
---
My dinos are on the rise again and it's happening very fast.
The most likely cause is the drop in nitrates. From 25mg/l to below 1 mg/l.
They are sitting comfortably on top of the algae that formed on the rocks during the high nitrate period.
---
What is needed is funding for proper scientists to research, come clear with the facts and move reefers away from the countless and mostly miss methods of no results. Years have passed and we are still fumbling in the dark.
---
My dinos are on the rise again and it's happening very fast.
The most likely cause is the drop in nitrates. From 25mg/l to below 1 mg/l.
They are sitting comfortably on top of the algae that formed on the rocks during the high nitrate period.
Squidmotron
New member
SurlyT
Member
Albert184445, I've had at least one experienced reefer tell me that UV did the trick for them in terms of getting on top of dinos. But there's at least one person supporting every other approach listed here as well.
I've read that there are a number of symbiotic bacteria hosted in the dinos' mucilage. I don't know a lot about symbiotic relationships, but is there any reason to think that a broad-spectrum antibiotic might help reduce the dino population by reducing that of their symbionts? If so, that might also support the use of UV in some cases.
Squidmotron, if you read back through this thread and the other one called "dino experiment", you'll see that there's a school of thought saying that dinos thrive when the nutrient levels fall below what the common green algae need to survive. That is, when nutrient levels are up a bit, the other algae thrive and the dinos are outcompeted for resources. That's why some people have tried to address the problem by boosting nitrates and phosphates.
Another quote I saw said (paraphrasing) that dinos happen when the concentration of carbon increases dramatically relative to the phosphate concentration, and that readings of 0 phosphates increase the probability of having a dino bloom. That same person said that they had no success beating them until they ran ozone and that killed them off in about 24 hours. Not sure whether I believe it or not, but a high carbon/phosphate ratio would seem to support a bacterial bloom (which could be related to the dino population if the symbiotic relationship is strongly correlated) while starving out green green/macro algae. Just relaying this since you mentioned phosphate levels.
I've read that there are a number of symbiotic bacteria hosted in the dinos' mucilage. I don't know a lot about symbiotic relationships, but is there any reason to think that a broad-spectrum antibiotic might help reduce the dino population by reducing that of their symbionts? If so, that might also support the use of UV in some cases.
Squidmotron, if you read back through this thread and the other one called "dino experiment", you'll see that there's a school of thought saying that dinos thrive when the nutrient levels fall below what the common green algae need to survive. That is, when nutrient levels are up a bit, the other algae thrive and the dinos are outcompeted for resources. That's why some people have tried to address the problem by boosting nitrates and phosphates.
Another quote I saw said (paraphrasing) that dinos happen when the concentration of carbon increases dramatically relative to the phosphate concentration, and that readings of 0 phosphates increase the probability of having a dino bloom. That same person said that they had no success beating them until they ran ozone and that killed them off in about 24 hours. Not sure whether I believe it or not, but a high carbon/phosphate ratio would seem to support a bacterial bloom (which could be related to the dino population if the symbiotic relationship is strongly correlated) while starving out green green/macro algae. Just relaying this since you mentioned phosphate levels.
Last edited:
