karimwassef
Active member
This morning, the rock I added the pods to was clean. But in a couple of hours, they were back. I expect the pods will come out at night again but we'll see.
Dinoflagellates.
- Thread starter DNA
- Start date
DNA
New member
A mass herring death in a local bay in 2012-2013 has left it missing 75% of the species living there previously.
A single bristle worm of a cold water variety was found there in a 1999 research.
Today it's 88% by count of all the animals found there.
This is an extreme case on how a single species gets the upper hand when the ecosystem gets disrupted.
Our reef tanks have limited biodiversity to begin with and it has often been shown how a removal of a single species in nature can have a ripple effect on the rest.
Same goes for introduced species in habitats they are not native to.
Reef tanks have all sorts of problems that often balance out as they get older, but many tend to go for quick fixes.
Chemicals are added or drastic changes are done to try to turn the tide. Some times it works, but what else went down with it?
In my case it's more than 3 years of continuous dino bloom so waiting it out does not seem to be the way to go.
A single bristle worm of a cold water variety was found there in a 1999 research.
Today it's 88% by count of all the animals found there.
This is an extreme case on how a single species gets the upper hand when the ecosystem gets disrupted.
Our reef tanks have limited biodiversity to begin with and it has often been shown how a removal of a single species in nature can have a ripple effect on the rest.
Same goes for introduced species in habitats they are not native to.
Reef tanks have all sorts of problems that often balance out as they get older, but many tend to go for quick fixes.
Chemicals are added or drastic changes are done to try to turn the tide. Some times it works, but what else went down with it?
In my case it's more than 3 years of continuous dino bloom so waiting it out does not seem to be the way to go.
DNA
New member
If my dinoflagellates would all die at once I got to collect them and drain the water off they would for sure fit into a small cup.
More likely I'd think they could all be pressed into a volume not more than couple of sugar cubes.
The 2 or 3 months of cyanobacteria have passed.
The outcome is different this time. The dinos are only in their preferred spots now, but denser so I estimate their population to be about the same.
I'm doing a monthly time lapse shots for coral growth comparison.
There are only two species of Acropora that are not showing any signs of growth.
One of them being A. Tenuis.
More likely I'd think they could all be pressed into a volume not more than couple of sugar cubes.
The 2 or 3 months of cyanobacteria have passed.
The outcome is different this time. The dinos are only in their preferred spots now, but denser so I estimate their population to be about the same.
I'm doing a monthly time lapse shots for coral growth comparison.
There are only two species of Acropora that are not showing any signs of growth.
One of them being A. Tenuis.
karimwassef
Active member
The pods helped some but not all.
I'm dosing 3% peroxide at 30ml a day into 600gal. It has cleared the dinos on the top side of the rocks (photosynthetic), but the shaded variety is tenacious. It's receding but slowly.
I think this is killing any planktonic organisms it finds - good or bad. Since I've had more bad, I think this is resetting the stage by clearing out all the players at once. It reacts in the water column so nighttime has the most impact on the light seeking dinos that get into the column. The shaded version stay put all night, so I think I'll need to start locally targeting them with a syringe and airline.
Side effects - I can't tell since the dinos caused my snails to die anyway and my bigger fish were poisoned too. Corals seem to love it. Amazing polyp expansion.
My pods seem resilient, but I suspect their planktonic offspring are equally decimated.
I'm dosing 3% peroxide at 30ml a day into 600gal. It has cleared the dinos on the top side of the rocks (photosynthetic), but the shaded variety is tenacious. It's receding but slowly.
I think this is killing any planktonic organisms it finds - good or bad. Since I've had more bad, I think this is resetting the stage by clearing out all the players at once. It reacts in the water column so nighttime has the most impact on the light seeking dinos that get into the column. The shaded version stay put all night, so I think I'll need to start locally targeting them with a syringe and airline.
Side effects - I can't tell since the dinos caused my snails to die anyway and my bigger fish were poisoned too. Corals seem to love it. Amazing polyp expansion.
My pods seem resilient, but I suspect their planktonic offspring are equally decimated.
karimwassef
Active member
I guess I'm following up an ecological imbalance with a kill or cure catastrophe to reset my micro-planet. Can't be worse than tearing it all down.
The H2O2 isn't a pollutant though, it destroys and then disappears into water, oxygen and whatever it successfully oxidized. My skimmer's effluent is lighter but also greater in volume.
The H2O2 isn't a pollutant though, it destroys and then disappears into water, oxygen and whatever it successfully oxidized. My skimmer's effluent is lighter but also greater in volume.
I dosed 20ml per day in 200gal for 8 days starting with 72 hour blackout, after blackout I dosed when lights came on and dosed stresszyme at lights out while running a uv sterilizer 24 hr/day.
2 weeks dino free, fingers crossed, haven't vacuumed the sand bed for a week and too afraid to do a water change.
no loss of livestock, shrimps or snails.
karimwassef
Active member
Several large fish (Naso, Regal, Powder Blue Tang) have now died, the last two clearly from marine velvet disease (Amyloodinium). This is a dinoflagellate too.
Apparently, the conditions I set up for a thriving plankton environment worked too well and I manage to cultivate at least three distinct kinds of dino.
Apparently, the conditions I set up for a thriving plankton environment worked too well and I manage to cultivate at least three distinct kinds of dino.
DNA
New member
That is just sad karimwassef.
I wonder what it takes to get dinos under control.
We have collected some good info on this thread, but the solution is still hidden in the fog.
A team of researchers could come with helpful facts in couple of years, but who is going to fund that?
---
Reefers want other reefers to look at them as successful in their reefkeeping so they hide their problems.
Since I have had dinos for so long I look for them in images of reeftanks I see on the web.
Some of the best and famous tanks in the world have had a dino bloom at some point and we know dinos like to stay.
Is there an elephant in the room or is this just something that happens to someone else.
For a number of reefers a dino bloom is like an endless horde of buffaloes stampeding through.
I wonder what it takes to get dinos under control.
We have collected some good info on this thread, but the solution is still hidden in the fog.
A team of researchers could come with helpful facts in couple of years, but who is going to fund that?
---
Reefers want other reefers to look at them as successful in their reefkeeping so they hide their problems.
Since I have had dinos for so long I look for them in images of reeftanks I see on the web.
Some of the best and famous tanks in the world have had a dino bloom at some point and we know dinos like to stay.
Is there an elephant in the room or is this just something that happens to someone else.
For a number of reefers a dino bloom is like an endless horde of buffaloes stampeding through.
karimwassef
Active member
My takeaway is that the protozoan environment is a whole ecosystem that I invited into my reef tank to help feed my corals in the belief that it would represent a healthy natural biological agent.
I intentionally did not skim at night. I intentionally removed all physical filtration (no socks or sponges), and I intentionally avoided UV, ozone or other oxidizing agents that could hurt the planktonic stages.
I have to admit that I naively thought the good guys would win in a closed ecosystem where I didn't control the rules of engagement. Unfortunately, the bad guys were more adept here.
The answer is to nuke the protozoan ecology or help the good guys reclaim the space.
My fast answer is to kill all and then reseed. UV + peroxide + ozone.
It's a disease, not algae or a chemical imbalance or nutrient excess. So, it needs hard medicine, not lower nutrients and water changes.
Once it's 'sterile', I'll look at adding live rock and re-establishing a healthy bio fauna.
Speaking of diseases, copper kills protozoans but kills reefs too - I think some study here would be useful... Silver? Other metals?
I intentionally did not skim at night. I intentionally removed all physical filtration (no socks or sponges), and I intentionally avoided UV, ozone or other oxidizing agents that could hurt the planktonic stages.
I have to admit that I naively thought the good guys would win in a closed ecosystem where I didn't control the rules of engagement. Unfortunately, the bad guys were more adept here.
The answer is to nuke the protozoan ecology or help the good guys reclaim the space.
My fast answer is to kill all and then reseed. UV + peroxide + ozone.
It's a disease, not algae or a chemical imbalance or nutrient excess. So, it needs hard medicine, not lower nutrients and water changes.
Once it's 'sterile', I'll look at adding live rock and re-establishing a healthy bio fauna.
Speaking of diseases, copper kills protozoans but kills reefs too - I think some study here would be useful... Silver? Other metals?
karimwassef
Active member
Cal_stir - you're on this track. What size UV did you get? Who from?
I have a coralife turbo12 36watt, purchased used off canreef forum.
I manually removed the dinos with aggressive blowing off the rocks and vacuuming the sandbed, my micro fauna was already decimated so I wasn't worried about that.
I pumped the water back into the system through a 5uM sediment filter thus avoiding the water change, I haven't done a WC for over 3 months now.
I got them to where there was only a couple patches forming on the sand bed daily.
I skimmed wet 24 hrs a day and added bacteria supplements daily.
I run the UV 24/7 @ 500 gph, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere NOT to run UV with ozone.
A few days after H2O2 treatment I added ecomatter (critters).
During and after the treatment I have been adding API stresszyme bacteria supplement as it is supposed to coat the fish and help protect them.
I am going to add a pod package after the holidays.
I don't want to say I have won the battle, and jynx myself, but it is looking promising.
Squidmotron
New member
Let's drill down and see if I can figure out more. Sadly, most of these are not very scientifically done.
(BTW, I live in Dallas as well. I notice dino outbreaks are very common here and I wonder if something about our water is at all related.)
Things that I think had little to no effect:
1) Feeding: While feeding, I tried phases wherein I fed very little for weeks and it didn't seem to have a noticeable effect. I tried feeding a lot to establish other algae to outcompete dino. I tired solidly for at least a month with each, but probably more. Didn't really do much that I could tell in this time frame.
2) Protein Skimmer: I have always run a protein skimmer and have never taken it offline. It is a Super Reef Octopus 250.
3) UV Sterilizer: I tried this for awhile. It didn't "solve" the problem, but mine was undersized anyway. Not a great experiment.
4) Ozone: Never tried.
5) Macroalgae. I have this is in a well-lit sump. Caulerpa and cheato. Tried increasing the light cycle. This actually grew VERY LITTLE while dino was active. Once dino died out, it's growth exploded. My conclusion was that dino is more effective at getting nutrients from the water. Caulerpa noticebly outcompetes the cheato.
6) Lights out. Lights out visually works for quite awhile. The longer you do lights out, the longer it takes for the dino to reappear. In my most desperate phase I went for 14-15 days. Some coral died (surprisingly few however). The dino was out for a long awhile, but it came back. I think this just delays the process.
7) Hydrogen Peroxide. This did absolutely nothing for me. Nothing at all. Even with 3 times the suggested dose for several weeks. I am absolutely amazed that so many people reported this working. This didn't really do much to my coral either, except they were annoyed right after dosing. I would say the overall effect on the tank was zero.
8) pH. This was an early experiment. And man it sucked. I killed some pumps using kalk for this and maintaining a high pH for a long time. No effect.
9) Flow. Tried insane levels of flow. Tried very litttle. It didn't really do anything.
Things that may have had some effect:
1) Water & RO/DI. The water in the Dallas area is suspicious to me. It was especially bad last year and the year before as measurements showed. My RO/DI filters were dying out quickly. Like in 6-8 weeks quickly. It may be tangentially related to the drought. Before my "dino die out", I had replaced all filters with brand new filters. And religiously, I had replaced them again not 2 months later. Mainly because I bought extra filters in bulk. When I think back on it, my dino did not last far past this phase.
2) Sand bed. I had added sand over the course of the previous year. I had also replaced the sand bed once entirely because of my belief that nutrients in the sand bed may have contributed to dinos. After this replacement period, dinos exploded visually. The population seemed to visually double. This made no sense to me because things like silicates would help DIATOMS and not DINOS. This is when I bought my microscope to verify that in fact what I was seeing with dinos. It was very obviously dinos, although other things were present. During this time, I came across a paper that most of the specifies of dinos we find in our tanks consume these diatoms. So it may just be an alternate food source. I resolved to not add/replace sand again until the dinos were gone.
3) Nutrient increase. I think actually the nutrient increase is a RESULT of a the dinos disappearing and no the cause of it, but eventually there was a nutrient increase. However, when I deliberately had tried to increase them it did not seem to work in the past. Just food for thought. I think dinos would make an excellent filtration system for our tanks, if but only they could be isolated.
4) Water changes. My water changes were less religious during the phase where dinos were dying out. But did happen every 6 weeks or so. And instead of buying water from my local store during bouts of laziness, I used my filter-replaced RO/DI and made 100% of all my water to perfect spec.
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I know my bloom would easily fill a cup--and I only have 40 gallons. I broke everything down yesterday, so I'll get a pic to show just how bad it got. Couple that with all the Lyngbya and you'll get even more.
I am ordering some densely covered live rock and sand via air freight in hopes that diversity will be high enough. I completely dumped all plants I had left and all corals will soak in a more concentrated peroxide dip prior to addition. Fish will receive freshwater dips prior to being added to the new system, as well. Of course, everything else will be sterilized with bleach and hydrochloric acid.
karimwassef
Active member
Squid - I think there's something to Dallas water too. My DI dies every 2 months - maybe it's my RO too. You should come take a look at my tank and compare notes sometime. Local chapter of the dino support group.
The LFSs don't complain though. I've taken my water in for testing and they said my levels are perfect. No N or P, solid pH, dKH and Ca. No copper, etc. That's why I don't think it has anything to do with water chemistry.
It's like having the flu. The air in my house is great, but I still have the flu. I can change my air filter or open all the windows - the virus is still there. I can eat more or less, exercise or not, bathe or not. Ignoring everything I do, it persists.
This is why sterilization looks to be the answer. I got the coralife 12x last night (independent choice but nice to have feedback ), so we'll see. I've upped my H2O2 also to 50ml.
The LFSs don't complain though. I've taken my water in for testing and they said my levels are perfect. No N or P, solid pH, dKH and Ca. No copper, etc. That's why I don't think it has anything to do with water chemistry.
It's like having the flu. The air in my house is great, but I still have the flu. I can change my air filter or open all the windows - the virus is still there. I can eat more or less, exercise or not, bathe or not. Ignoring everything I do, it persists.
This is why sterilization looks to be the answer. I got the coralife 12x last night (independent choice but nice to have feedback
), so we'll see. I've upped my H2O2 also to 50ml.
DNA
New member
A potential control on Ostreopsis dinoflagellates.
I keep reading published papers from scientists and today I found something interesting written by A. ISMAEL and Y. HALIM from Alexandria in Egypt.
They found a link between ocean temperatures and Ostreopsis cell count. Being the highest at 28°C.
This is low risk and very easy to try out, but the effect could be indirect and delayed so adjust your tanks temperature very slowly over weeks or months.
Their data it clear, but I'd expect a reduction rather than a cure.
I've tried various temperatures before without any noticeable results, but may have not kept it going long enough.
If i'ts Ostreopsis, you have to take a look.
Here is the original paper. http://www.medit-mar-sc.net/index.php/marine/article/view/300
I keep reading published papers from scientists and today I found something interesting written by A. ISMAEL and Y. HALIM from Alexandria in Egypt.
They found a link between ocean temperatures and Ostreopsis cell count. Being the highest at 28°C.
This is low risk and very easy to try out, but the effect could be indirect and delayed so adjust your tanks temperature very slowly over weeks or months.
Their data it clear, but I'd expect a reduction rather than a cure.
I've tried various temperatures before without any noticeable results, but may have not kept it going long enough.
If i'ts Ostreopsis, you have to take a look.
Here is the original paper. http://www.medit-mar-sc.net/index.php/marine/article/view/300
karimwassef
Active member
I run my tank cool 73-75F (23-24C), without noticing a benefit. But I might not have that strain or the fauna in the test region.
More likely, I have competing dino species that alternate over different temperature ranges. LOL.
More likely, I have competing dino species that alternate over different temperature ranges. LOL.
karimwassef
Active member
Here's a quick impromptu poll (if the OP doesn't mind):
Who was running a right sized UV sterilizer when the dinos bloomed?
Karimwassef : no (clearly)
Who was running a right sized UV sterilizer when the dinos bloomed?
Karimwassef : no (clearly)
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I did not use a sterilizer and never have on my personal systems.
karimwassef
Active member
Neither have I. This infestation has made me reconsider.
