Dinoflagellates.

[tastyfish]

Dinos has gotten worse! I believe I had both cyano and dinoflagellate ostreopsis. I've never had any on my sand only on the rocks and coral plugs. My efforts to kill the Dinos killed the cyano and gave the Dinos the upper hand. Now they are everywhere even on my sand. I am going to hit them with a quadruple threat that started last night.
1. 3day blackout which helped in the past to knock them back.
2. Raising PH and maintaining it to 8.5.
3. Incorporate pods, beneficial bacteria
4. Dose Algae X. I've dosed it back in December and actually eliminated them to less than 10%.

I'm so through with this mess. Any more suggestions that can aid in this process?

Sorry to hear this, when I suffered from them, I spoke with 15 or so other reefers who had experienced Dinos. Pretty much everyone had tried a short (3 day) blackout and almost in every case, they came back.

This is what mine looked like (a small sample of what was in the tank):

After speaking with some very helpful (and much more experienced reefers than me), I decided to employ a multi-pronged strategy to defeat them (this was performed in a relatively new tank, with only a few SPS frags, but has been used in very mature SPS systems) This consisted of the following:

1: Remove:
- Siphon to *waste* all the dinoflagellate mass I could with as little as possible water change (replacement water used TMC Pro Reef synthetic salt to ensure no organics) Do NOT try to pass through a filter sock or floss, they will pass through and re-form.

2: Create a hostile environment:

- 8+ Day Total blackout (sump and tank wrapped in black plastic) followed by Blue-only lighting for 5 days before introducing whites gradually (some advised longer and had done so with very mature SPS tanks)

- Maintain very low phosphate and Nitrate (Double Rowa amount, changing every 3/4 days)

- Double carbon media, replacing every 4 days

- Raise pH using Air stone to maintain 8.2+

- Wet Skim and clean it constantly - you need the skimmer at peak efficiency to remove dinos in the water column

3: Outcompete:
Create nutrient competition with good profile of microfauna/flora (Initial 10 x dose of FM Ultra-Bio, followed by daily top-ups of normal dose with UltraBak

Remember: Siphon Dead/Dying Dinoflaggelates to waste! NEVER through a filter sock.

The reason for removal of as much of the dinoflagellate mass as possible prior to blackout and during is two fold: Firstly, they will break down and provide more free nutrients (you are trying to reduce this). Secondly, even if they are not toxic when growing in the tank (as mine were not), they can release toxins when dying off. I ost two conches who started to feed on an area of dying dinoflagellates on the sand.

The good news is that 12+ weeks later, and they have not returned and the tank is (as far as I can tell) free of them.

A word on this approach, however - it is not for the faint hearted. You need to keep your head and press ahead with the blackout. Fortunately for me, I did not have a big stock of SPS. (Hammerheads, Acan, soft corals and LPS were fine) however those who helped had very mature SPS tanks and had gone through similar or longer blackouts.

However in my case, it did trigger a massive issue with the fish stock. As they were in the dark, they retreated to the rock and did not feed. This lowered their immune system and allowed a protozoan infection (probably Crytpocaryon) to take hold (I believe this came into the system on some macroalgae from another reefer previously).

In order to reduce the impact on fish immune systems, I would feed fortified food and use appetite stimulator (such as Garlic) to try to ensure the fish do feed and get plenty of vitamins & minerals when they do.

So this method is certainly effective, and much more so than miracle in a bottle chemicals, however some care needs to be taken along with perseverance.

Good Luck, it's beatable.

 

[machodik]

Nyxx photo: I vote yes. Dinos.

Yours: not sure, but that description in a low nutrient system is more strongly suggestive of dinos than your picture.

I have also seen rocks with tiny bubbles on the surface although not much but scattered around . Is this also sign of Dinos? I keep cleaning this fine hair like strands attached one to the corals and another end either free flowing or connected to the other coral's trunk. That is why I think those fine hair like stuff look so similar to NYXX photos but not that much , mine come in single strands .

Cheers,

MD

 

[taricha]

Update/good news;

8 days ago I purchased 32lbs very live healthy rock from a 9 year old reef. Today my tank is very clear, all corals wide open and most showing sign of growth. Coralline algae and critter life in the sump noticeably growing. Continuing to dose 8oz live homemade phytoplankton daily and 10% water changes.

Could you post up your full treatment protocol? Was it just homegrown phyto and lots of live rock?

At first glance it's a notable story because it might be the least disruptive (to sensitive corals) successful intervention I remember seeing on here.

 

[PorkchopExpress]

Dinos has gotten worse! I believe I had both cyano and dinoflagellate ostreopsis. I've never had any on my sand only on the rocks and coral plugs. My efforts to kill the Dinos killed the cyano and gave the Dinos the upper hand. Now they are everywhere even on my sand. I am going to hit them with a quadruple threat that started last night.
1. 3day blackout which helped in the past to knock them back.
2. Raising PH and maintaining it to 8.5.
3. Incorporate pods, beneficial bacteria
4. Dose Algae X. I've dosed it back in December and actually eliminated them to less than 10%.

I'm so through with this mess. Any more suggestions that can aid in this process?

It sounds like you had the right plan except you decided to dose that Algae X. In many cases that algaecide will also kill beneficial other life such as those pods and bacteria you just added. Also, you WANT to grow other algae, not kill it.

Also, it seems you missed a vital step - going dirty. In many cases that has been the nail on the coffin along with the other steps.

I suggest you try things again but actually try to understand what you're doing. There is no easy kill method for the dinos. What you are trying to do is knock them back, which you've already shown that a short blackout is effective, then create an environment that is hostile for them by introducing those pods/phyto and going dirty to grow other competing algaes.

 

[Jewilson83]

Cool thanks everyone. I'm not going to use Algae X. I didn't mention but I have gone dirty also. I raised my Nitrates for my SPS anyways. I haven't done a WC since the end of December.

 

[mannyhernz]

It sounds like you had the right plan except you decided to dose that Algae X. In many cases that algaecide will also kill beneficial other life such as those pods and bacteria you just added. Also, you WANT to grow other algae, not kill it.

Also, it seems you missed a vital step - going dirty. In many cases that has been the nail on the coffin along with the other steps.

I suggest you try things again but actually try to understand what you're doing. There is no easy kill method for the dinos. What you are trying to do is knock them back, which you've already shown that a short blackout is effective, then create an environment that is hostile for them by introducing those pods/phyto and going dirty to grow other competing algaes.

This! This is what did in my dinos. I murdered them all! Hahahaha
But seriously, the dirty method did in fact work..seemed like it was not doing anything but you have to keep up with it and make sure you stay constant. As i type this my sps have no dino strings, but i do see the small dusting of them here and there. I will just continue until i see no trace of them..thanks again to all who helped!

 

[EdenR]

It sounds like you had the right plan except you decided to dose that Algae X. In many cases that algaecide will also kill beneficial other life such as those pods and bacteria you just added. Also, you WANT to grow other algae, not kill it.

Also, it seems you missed a vital step - going dirty. In many cases that has been the nail on the coffin along with the other steps.

I suggest you try things again but actually try to understand what you're doing. There is no easy kill method for the dinos. What you are trying to do is knock them back, which you've already shown that a short blackout is effective, then create an environment that is hostile for them by introducing those pods/phyto and going dirty to grow other competing algaes.

I agree, these methods also worked for me! The 3 days blackout plus UV actually got rid of all dinos (that I could actually see) and the dirty method kept them away for good and I haven't seen any in months, even after multiple weekly water changes.

I'd also like to thank everyone that helped with this problem! :thumbsup:

PS - there's not point to extended blackouts. As an SPS keeper I've noticed decline in SPS health after just 4 days of true blackouts where they started to STN. Plus there's no guarantee the dinos won't just come back, which they pretty much always do. Why risk the health of your fish and corals doing something that isn't guaranteed to eliminate dinos? The short blackout was just meant to shorten the time it takes to eliminate dinos by setting their numbers back a bit then attacking them indirectly by promoting other things that are hostile to them. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

 

[joti26]

Update on my dino wars!

Update on my dino wars!

I think I might have cracked it! Couple of things noted in my attack of the Dino's firstly caught it early so nowhere near as bad as some. Mine wasn't toxic. I was despairing on Saturday as it was still niggling away, no increase but still smothering some corals despite frequently removing with the baster. So tweaked a few things this weekend with huge success. Two days of partial lights out in another all out attack for starters.

Still using garlic, adding phyto and pods and using coral snow. But also started adding Nyos Bac alternating it with reeflowers bacteria feeder the last few days. I haven't tried to go 'dirty' method as my nitrates were already high! I have also changed the membrane in the RO unit and bought a better skimmer.

It had cleared a bit in some areas but still persisting on some plants, had some macro algae growing and always covered no matter how much I siphoned off. I did notice when I looked under the microscope that it looked like they were inside the stems of the cheato but definitely loads laying flats to the surface. Even after dipping it still came back.

Got 10 micron socks in on Saturday as anything else is pointless some still goes through as I found out. Siphoning as much of the dead stuff as possible, there is a lot of it! Blasting rocks as well with the baster as well as sucking up from all the nooks and crannies in the rocks. Moved one frag and tons of the dusty dead stuff under it. Ditched the red grape but still had some green macro growing in the rocks, so fed up with it plucked it all out yesterday and siphoned out loads of crud where it grew. Today nothing at all in that area which is a huge victory!

UV was in the sump, moved it into main tank on Saturday as figured this would be where most water born ones would be when lights out.

Corals are looking much better some softies were really struggling. Absolutely none in the sump on cheato today which is a first for weeks! Daren't say it has gone yet but this is the most hopeful I have been in getting rid of it completely.
:dance:

 

[karimwassef]

Eden, Joti

What's your vote on UV?

 

[joti26]

Eden, Joti

What's your vote on UV?

Well all I can say is that one of the biggest changes that may have had most impact these past two days of victory was moving the UV to the main tank instead of the sump. I figured that as I now had the 10 micron sock on that there was a possibility that they could still be lurking upstairs so to speak. It is only a cheap one but low flow. The new skimmer was neither here nor there as I needed one anyway. Other than that I was and am doing the exact same with everything else to keep them at bay. Also finding so much dead Dino indicates they are being zapped!

 

[karimwassef]

Ok
++ Karim. (killed dinos every time)
+- Porkchop. (sometimes killed dinos)
+0 Fishkeeper82. (controlled & halted dinos)
+0 reefcentral123 (controlled & halted dinos)
++ joti26 (biggest change)

 

[EdenR]

Eden, Joti

What's your vote on UV?

It's difficult to say because I did a blackout along with the UV. I did a 3 day blackout before without the UV and it rid my tank of dinos for 2 weeks. The second 3 day blackout I had the UV, dosed pods and phyto, and also went real dirty (no skimmer, removed mechanical filtration, fed 3 times the amount of food I normally did, and so forth so it wasn't exactly a controlled experiment. If I were to make an educated guess I would say the UV was not necessary but helped. I think bare minimum you can probably beat dinos by just dosing pods and phyto and go real dirty. It would just take much longer.

 

[seamonster124]

Could you post up your full treatment protocol? Was it just homegrown phyto and lots of live rock?

At first glance it's a notable story because it might be the least disruptive (to sensitive corals) successful intervention I remember seeing on here.

I tried everything that has been discussed in this thread, except UV.

I cannot be sure what worked, or that they will not come back; but I suspect adding real live rock and feeding it is the key.

I just looked at the contents of the filter sock. There are 3-4 dancing dinos for every thousand other guys; not sure what they are but there are millions of them. Looks like dinos are outnumbered big time.

This is life in a single drop of filter sock water.

<iframe width="554" height="380" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ntx-6hB5nDs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Content of my filter sock exactly 6 weeks ago
<iframe width="554" height="380" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2-1bDK5_otA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[garyinco]

For all you reefers fighting dinos, I fought them for 15 months, I was seriously thinking of quitting. But I'm an old stubborn fool. I started w/ dry rock completely. Things went well for two or three months. Then the dinos took off. First to go was most of my snail population. Then strings on the rock and coral. My sump was a mess. I didn't, and still don't have a microscope, but plan to get one in the not too distant future.

I was thinking clean, clean, clean. Running carbon, GFO, and Nopox. Added ozone and a the required equipment to do so. Cut the lights both partially and completely. Things just got worse. Tried AlgaeX and it knocked them back but they would return in a few weeks. In the process I lost all my SPS. LPS and soft corals survived but took a big hit. Fish never seemed bothered. I was very persistent in the amount dosed and followed the manufacturers directions to the letter.

Then, out of desperation I bought a half gallon of pods and some phyto. Added all the pods at once and started building up a daily dose of phyto. The dinos recided quickly and I have seen very few signs of them in the past two or three months. My sump looks a thousand times better. I'm still adding phyto every day and have started culturing it. I pick up pods every chance I get (a local reef store staff member cultures them and the pricing is very good). I also feed a lot of liquid foods (Red Sea Coral Energy, Two Little Fishies Acropower and Marinesnow, BRS Reef Chili) almost daily. I've upped the amount of mysis I feed my fish. I also cut the power to my skimmer for 4 hours per day. That is mostly to not skim out the liquid food when I add it.

My coraline is still not growing well, mostly on the glass and probably half my sandbed is still rock hard like concrete. But I feel confident that I've got the little monsters in check.

The point of my post is that if you've given an ample amount of time in your treatment methods and are not winning, then consider trying the dirty method. It has worked for me.

 

[rallibon]

To add to the general vote / discussion on does UV work or contribute, I would repeat my position from earlier post. You could take one of three logical positions if you have dinos:
(1) Do nothing and hope they go away (they might) and if not give up and tear your tank down
(2) Try one remedy or approach in isolation for a period of time, and if it does not work, try the next in the hope of finding the panacea. Then you might be able to find the single instrument of "dino death" (or of course they may just have run their course and died away naturally so you have a false positive result.
(3) Take a broad-based approach employing multiple methods simultaneously, as long as they are not contradictory or mutually exclusive. That could include over-feeding, adding pods, adding phyto, adding live rock, using UV, doing blackout(s), siphoning out dinos, promoting other algae etc etc as per the recommedations on this thread.

My personal priority was to get rid of my dinos so I did (3); UV may or may not have been a contributory factor but to be honest I don't care if I know definitively or not so long as the combined regime can be sustained. Would I suggest someone serious about trying to remove their dinos puts in a UV on low flow as part of (3)? Yes I would.

 

[Jewilson83]

What is everyone using for phyto?

 

[mannyhernz]

Phyto feast, phyco pure.

 

[karimwassef]

Can you post the links to your Phyto sources?

 

[nvladik]

Can you post the links to your Phyto sources?

And Pods too while we are at it?

 

[Shaummy]

So it appears that I have beaten back the Dinos I had, sorry I didn't use a scope to ID it.

I went full on dirty method (no water changes, heavy feeding, Ammino/coral feedings etc..) for about 6 weeks.

I actually saw an increase in green and red hair algae as well. I've done 1 water change since that time and still no signs of Dinos returning.

My question is "where do I go from here?" Do I start to introduce GFO and/or Carbon again in small amounts to start to fight the hair algae now? I can't prove it...but I suspect that I may have help bring on my Dinos by a decision to use a stupid large amount of GFO.

I have removed what GHA I could by hand and scraping it all off the back glass etc.. but should I start to bring GFO or Carbon back online in small amounts to try to kill it back further?