mnchartier
Premium Member
Anyone able to ID this. Have had them for a long time. Sorry for quality as this was with my kids microscope and a cell phone camera. First two are videos
Last edited:
Dinoflagellates.
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StrangeDejavu
Member
The beginning of your tank sounds a lot like mine. At first, I only saw tiny portions of slime, maybe the size of a quarter, in the sand. For the most part, I had diatoms, and (what I thought then) cyano. I was reading through a thread on RC and this guy was detailing his first year and how he was on cloud 9 with his tank, adding fish, adding coral, just overall enjoying the entire thing. He went on about how around month 6 his tank reached a point with algae that had him so depressed he couldn't even enjoy the tank anymore. The thing that stood out to me was how he said "if I could do it over, I would focus on prevention early instead of trying to deal with it once it's a problem". I thought okay, I hear that loud and clear. I was just starting to see some green hair algae appear in my tank, so I ordered BRS GFO. I started seeing a spot of cyano on the rock above where the green hair algae had appeared, so I bought a skimmer. I even modded it to skim at its full potential, and it seems like since I added GFO & the skimmer, the dinos have increased exponentially. What started out as a patch in the sand is now 75% of my sandbed and every surface of my rock. It doesn't send off a lot of strings, and also doesn't get covered in oxygen bubbles like you see on Google Images. Mine looked nothing like those pics, which also put me in the same boat as you, believing it to off-the-rails diatoms, cyano or something else entirely.
I'm not super happy about the price, but I did order the copepod/phytoplankton bundle from AlgaeBarn last night, which will be here Wednesday. I feel like i'm on the right track by shutting off the skimmer, removing GFO. Add to that a blackout and daily Microbacter7 and Phyto dosing and the addition of 3,000+ copepods. I wasn't sure how I felt about the biodiveristy/dino link when I first came into this thread, but it's pretty obvious to me at this point. What confirmed it for me was comparing my Dad's tank to my own. He and I both bought BioCube 29s, we both used Fiji Pink live sand, and we both bought Real Reef live rock purchased from the same LFS. At the 3 month mark, his tank is absolutely crawling with life. Spirorbid worms, colonista snails, featherdusters everywhere, the return chamber is covered in pineapple sponges, ball anenomes, copepods, amphipods... the list goes on. I'm approaching 2.5 months and I have just discovered my first spirorbid worm with another growing next to it. He also isn't running a skimmer, carbon or GFO... just some filter floss. At this point, the link between biodiversity and dinos is pretty apparent to me.
I have no doubt that I caused this problem because I tried too hard. Someone here has a quote in their signature that could really sum it up, and it said "Think about it, but don't overthink it." If I had taken this approach from the beginning rather than trying to micromanage every aspect of this tank, I feel I wouldn't be in this situation right now.
StrangeDejavu
Member
So I was looking at photos I took just 3 days ago (when I shut off my skimmer and started Microbacter7 dosing) and compared them with a photo I just took. I'm surprised to see improvement in the sand already. However, i'm undecided if the rock looks any better. If anything, it looks a little worse. Hmm...
Yes, yes. actual export of dinos somehow is pretty important. siphoning as much as possible means you have fewer toxins and a less dramatic swing as the dinos fade.
assume whatever level of light helps your coral also helps dinos, so if you're going to black out, then black out.
What do you intend to replace the dino growth with? leaving your system a biodiversity desert will probably not last very long. I don't know that people have had good results with just bacterial replacement.
Those would be my concerns.
edit:
Just read your later post with the phyto, pods info. that is a replacement some poeple have had success with. Good luck.
Messing around with some beaker tests:
Wanted to get a ballpark idea of what level of Hydrogen peroxide is needed to kill ostreopsis. So I did some crude dose-response tests.
Round 1:
four 50 mill beakers tank water/Ostis
added 1 drop, 4 drops, 16, and 64 drops of H2O2 (normal 3%)
24 hours later...
expected 1 to do nothing and 64 to be a wipeout, but actually all 4 were wipeouts. no dino movement in any, dinos in control beaker were nice and happy and moving. for the 16 and 64 drops, the dinos actually lost their characteristic pigment, their remains were greyed out. (not clear like the theca)
I didn't expect the 1 drop to completely stop them in their tracks, but I should have checked the numbers: 32 drops out of my dropper makes a mill, so 1 drop in 50 mill was actually adding the equivalent of 2.4 ml per gallon, which is a lot.
So Round 2:
I used a little syringe - in 100ml Osti/water mix I added
.01ml, .02ml, .04ml, .08ml, .16ml of peroxide
After about 30 min the .01 and .02 looked pretty similar to the control. The .04ml might have had half of ostis stop moving. The .08 and the .16 had no moving dinos. I checked back on the .04 ml beaker after an hour - still looked about the same as at 30 minutes.
I'll post vids later.
.04ml H2O2/100ml tank water = 1.5ml per Gallon
.08ml H2O2/100ml tank water = 3.0ml per Gallon
(interestingly, I still saw ciliates - looked like euplotes - a little smaller than the ostis that were still swimming around in both the .08ml and the .16ml treated beakers)
Of course, these are not recommendations. I have no idea what all in a reef system would be killed by 1 mill or 2 of peroxide per gallon. Lots I figure.
Wanted to get a ballpark idea of what level of Hydrogen peroxide is needed to kill ostreopsis. So I did some crude dose-response tests.
Round 1:
four 50 mill beakers tank water/Ostis
added 1 drop, 4 drops, 16, and 64 drops of H2O2 (normal 3%)
24 hours later...
expected 1 to do nothing and 64 to be a wipeout, but actually all 4 were wipeouts. no dino movement in any, dinos in control beaker were nice and happy and moving. for the 16 and 64 drops, the dinos actually lost their characteristic pigment, their remains were greyed out. (not clear like the theca)
I didn't expect the 1 drop to completely stop them in their tracks, but I should have checked the numbers: 32 drops out of my dropper makes a mill, so 1 drop in 50 mill was actually adding the equivalent of 2.4 ml per gallon, which is a lot.
So Round 2:
I used a little syringe - in 100ml Osti/water mix I added
.01ml, .02ml, .04ml, .08ml, .16ml of peroxide
After about 30 min the .01 and .02 looked pretty similar to the control. The .04ml might have had half of ostis stop moving. The .08 and the .16 had no moving dinos. I checked back on the .04 ml beaker after an hour - still looked about the same as at 30 minutes.
I'll post vids later.
.04ml H2O2/100ml tank water = 1.5ml per Gallon
.08ml H2O2/100ml tank water = 3.0ml per Gallon
(interestingly, I still saw ciliates - looked like euplotes - a little smaller than the ostis that were still swimming around in both the .08ml and the .16ml treated beakers)
Of course, these are not recommendations. I have no idea what all in a reef system would be killed by 1 mill or 2 of peroxide per gallon. Lots I figure.
karimwassef
Active member
Peroxide has a short life and impact zone (distance). This is actually a key to its safety IMO.
It works for local attack, but not as effective when broadcast.
A reactor may be a good middle ground? Run the loop into a brightly lit space and the apply the peroxide. There would still be a need to remove the dead to avoid creating a new food source.
It works for local attack, but not as effective when broadcast.
A reactor may be a good middle ground? Run the loop into a brightly lit space and the apply the peroxide. There would still be a need to remove the dead to avoid creating a new food source.
karimwassef
Active member
I thought Ostis have a hard shell that makes them immune to chemical attacks?
jason2459
Well-known member
Look up a thread by twilliard called
Back at it! Peroxide vrs cyanobacteria
I can't link to it but you can google search that.
karimwassef
Active member
Cyano - sure, but dinos are more than cyano.
Resistant. Not immune. Takes much more peroxide to knock out ostis than say, cyano. And much more than amphidinium dinos too.
I found literature on dose response to peroxide for lots of other types of phytoplankton, but couldn't find any for ostreopsis, so trying to at least come up with a ballpark figure.
karimwassef
Active member
I dosed peroxide before going UV. It slows them down, but doesn't remove them.
It's like a poor man's UV (and I am a poor man, so.... ). I eventually put enough together to go UV.
It's like a poor man's UV (and I am a poor man, so.... ). I eventually put enough together to go UV.
Here's vids. Looked at them again. Can't see much difference in the control .01,.02 or .04 dose.
https://goo.gl/photos/yTzMTneKHsFNL3uz8
jason2459
Well-known member
A few have stated success in that thread with dinos as well but I was referring to the thread more FYI educational type as it does discuss as well H2O2's effectiveness and timings of that effectiveness. 12 hours if I recall which was the bases for dosing morning and evening for cyano. Again, if I recall correctly the person that went into more detail on the dinos success dosed every couple hours.
jason2459
Well-known member
I can tell you a direct dose of peroxide knocks them out and seems to rupture their shell. First hand experimentation. [emoji1]
Cyano completely falls apart.
jason2459
Well-known member
Oh, i guess i didnt update my upclose biology thread here yet. I thought I did. Way to tired to do it now. I was going to link to the vid and pic of the dinos before and after H2O2. Its updated on that other site that peroxide thread is at.
Heres the playlist
Cyano H2O2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN_wI2B-a8vrvK-k2tXSovGqjiCjXnpa-
Heres the playlist
Cyano H2O2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN_wI2B-a8vrvK-k2tXSovGqjiCjXnpa-
StrangeDejavu
Member
I've been wanting a microscope for a while now, so I figure this is a good time. Can I make a positive ID at 400x or is stronger mag needed? It's capable of 1000X but I know these cheaper microscopes don't have the best optics.
Also, do you guys notice a smell with your Dinos? Every time I change out my filter floss, I notice it has a bizarre smell. Kind of like low tide mixed with a sweet smell that instantly turns up the nose. All my media has the smell trapped in it too. I think this is the part I most look forward to defeating, lol.
Also, do you guys notice a smell with your Dinos? Every time I change out my filter floss, I notice it has a bizarre smell. Kind of like low tide mixed with a sweet smell that instantly turns up the nose. All my media has the smell trapped in it too. I think this is the part I most look forward to defeating, lol.
StrangeDejavu
Member
Sand is looking better and better each day. Here's another before/after shot. This is day 4 without the skimmer and daily Microbacter7 dosing (5mL per 25g).
I saw your vids in the other thread. Great stuff. Your scope is much stronger than mine. I'd be interested to see closeups of dinos before/after peroxide. Only changes I can make out are no movement and theca separates.
Thanks a ton for the thread rec. Lots of info there relevant to what I'm looking into at the moment.
nope. 40x is sufficient for Dino ID to genus level - which is mostly all we care about. see http://www.algaeid.com/identification/ for examples.
Lots of people note a smell with dinos. I used to think mine didn't smell until one of my students said the dino beakers smelled bad compared to the clean tank water beakers.
DNA
New member
Awesome videos.
It looks like an expensive microscope in skillful hands.
I was trying to figure out if dinos are seeking out the cyanobacteria or vice versa.
