DIY Calcium Reactor with a Twist!

[animalkingdom]

Hey yall I just thought I'd post my 5 minute plans for a DIY calcium reactor powered by fermentation!!! Never seen something like this before so it may be crazy, but I thought it would be fun to try. Let me know your thoughts on it. Constructive Criticism Welcome!!

How it works:
So basically there would be a wash or wort used to make CO2 from yeast fermentation
This CO2 would pass through a electronic Y valve that would be controlled by a pH controller
One end would go to Reactor and the other to outside the house (important)
If the pH inside reactor gets too high the controller switches y valve to inject CO2 into the reactor
When necessary low pH is reached Controller flips Y valve to expel excess CO2 outside
Two 2 liter soda bottle would be the two main chamber of the reactor
A MJ 1200 or 900 would be used for recirculation
Second chamber would be used to bring pH back up to avoid low pH
Flow restrictor on effluent line would allow for control of rate of water through reactor
Not pictured: main reactor would be fed by method of choice (gravity, dosing pump, feed pump)
Change out wort/wash culture every couple days to maintain high levels of fermentation
Make your favorite brew while in the process to maximize economical value, just remember its not ok to distill

-Chameleon

PS: I have encountered one hurdle so far:
I cant seem to find a electronic low gas pressure y valve. Anyone know where something like this may exist. I guess I could set up a Y junction and have a subsequent solenoid valve on each one with opposite pH settings so when one is opened the other is closed, but I am worried that timing wont match up perfect and I dont want to create back pressure in the fermenter. Also this seems less cost effective and more complicated. Anyone have any thought on the pH controlled valve?

 

[_shorty_]

You should make it a 2 for 1... Make beer while powering your reactor!

Interesting idea. Do you have much experience with fermentation? I don't, but it seems like you'd need a large mash/batch to produce enought CO2. I have looked at DIY CO2 generation though use of yeast fermentation. A 1 gallon container only generates, what, a bubble of CO2 per second or so doesn't it? How much is needed for a carbon reactor?

Before you pay any more for equipment, I'd do some testing on how much fermentation you'd need vs how much you could efficiently generate. I assume you could do that part of the testing fairly cheaply.

 

[acroman]

They do fermentation for freshwater CO2 injection, but the CO2 production rate isn't very high.
Also, you may have issues with backflow into the CO2 line if there isnt enough vacuum being drawn by the pump (They do strange things sometimes) -With a CO2 tank, you can up the pressure, and keep it constant.

A three-way valve would be what you are looking for, but i don't know of any that small (or cheap for that matter)

 

[gbru316]

With fermentation, your CO2 production will not be consistent (CO2 output will resemble a bell curve), so it'll require constant adjustment to operate. Not only will CO2 production vary with amount of sugar in solution and number of yeast cells present, temperature of fermentation will cause fluctuations in production. The fermentation process itself creates some heat. Seasonal changes will further cause temperature fluctuations.

It sounds like a neat idea, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I'd just buy a CO2 tank and reg and be done with it. Far easier and more efficient.

 

[animalkingdom]

Interesting points. First I would like to mention a two liter culture of yeast in sugar water produces CO2 at quite an alarming rate. We are talking steady stream of bubbles.

In regards to the various rates at which CO2 are produced during the fermentation cycle do yall not think a pH controller would be useful for controlling the CO2 into the reactor? That way if more CO2 is being produced, more CO2 gets expelled through waste line rather than going into the reactor. The pH of the reactor would be the factor that adjust the amount of CO2 added rather than the CO2 production rate by yeast

Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[animalkingdom]

Oh Id like to add I've been doing some test runs on CO2 production and I can get sustained bubbles for 6 going on 7 days at 21C in a 2liter bottle with 1lb of sugar added and some minimalistic homemade yeast nutrients + yeast of course.

 

[gbru316]

Interesting points. First I would like to mention a two liter culture of yeast in sugar water produces CO2 at quite an alarming rate. We are talking steady stream of bubbles.

In regards to the various rates at which CO2 are produced during the fermentation cycle do yall not think a pH controller would be useful for controlling the CO2 into the reactor? That way if more CO2 is being produced, more CO2 gets expelled through waste line rather than going into the reactor. The pH of the reactor would be the factor that adjust the amount of CO2 added rather than the CO2 production rate by yeast

Thanks for the thoughts!

This is assuming that the yeast can, indeed, supply enough CO2. Once the fermentation slows to the point where the controller is asking for more CO2, it's useless.

Additionally, you're going to have to change out the culture every now and then. Yeast start to die when the alcohol content rises above a certain point (this exact point depends on yeast strain). When this happens, your reactor will take some time to start working again, as yeast do not begin to ferment instantly.

Christ White, owner of White Labs (a yeast manufacturer) wrote a book with a prominent brewer (Jamil Zainasheff) regarding yeast. It's called, of all things, Yeast.

It might be worth paging through.

 

[animalkingdom]

2 hours and I can start a culture that is producing CO2 bubbles. At 21 degrees I get sustained bubbles for 5 days. If I start a culture ever 5 days and switch out the CO2 fermenter I think I think I should be good with only 2 hours of no CO2 production where the reactor is essentially useless and just a water pump. I could prepare the culture and switch it out after it starts making CO2 but I doubt 2 hours of downtime would impact the calc alk levels. Especially if I do in the morning where little calcification to no is taking place before the lights come on.

 

[_shorty_]

again, an interesting idea. I'd love to see it work. Have you done maintenance price comparisons on the fermentation vs CO2 (minus the initial cost of setup on each)? I dont' know how much it costs to refill a CO2 tank...

 

[gbru316]

2 hours and I can start a culture that is producing CO2 bubbles. At 21 degrees I get sustained bubbles for 5 days. If I start a culture ever 5 days and switch out the CO2 fermenter I think I think I should be good with only 2 hours of no CO2 production where the reactor is essentially useless and just a water pump. I could prepare the culture and switch it out after it starts making CO2 but I doubt 2 hours of downtime would impact the calc alk levels. Especially if I do in the morning where little calcification to no is taking place before the lights come on.

The sight of sustained bubbles does not mean that a constant volume is being produced. I guarantee that the rate of co2 production by the yeast is not constant from t=2 hrs to t= 5 days.


Co2 tanks are very cheap to fill. A few bucks at most.

I'm all for DIY, but you seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel here. I have a hard time thinking that this will ever be a practical implementation of a calcium reactor by relying on fermentation.

From a safety perspective, if that Y valve fails (rather, WHEN that Y valve, or solenoid fails), you risk either an explosion or dumping too much co2 into your reactor. It's a single point of failure.

 

[Gorgok]

Here is a small solenoid valve that runs off 5V DC. Its rated for up to 72 PSI (and down to low vacuum).

 

[animalkingdom]

The sight of sustained bubbles does not mean that a constant volume is being produced. I guarantee that the rate of co2 production by the yeast is not constant from t=2 hrs to t= 5 days.


Co2 tanks are very cheap to fill. A few bucks at most.

I'm all for DIY, but you seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel here. I have a hard time thinking that this will ever be a practical implementation of a calcium reactor by relying on fermentation.

From a safety perspective, if that Y valve fails (rather, WHEN that Y valve, or solenoid fails), you risk either an explosion or dumping too much co2 into your reactor. It's a single point of failure.

I am not thinking that the rate will be consistent but more so that the pH controller will modify the rate at which the CO2 enters the reactor. Your concerns on safety apply to a co2 tank and reg as well with a high demand tank that uses pH rather than bubble count to regulate CO2 addition. I am not convinced yet that sealed fermenting yeast will blow up a 2 liter bottle. many beers are bottle with still fermenting yeast to up the carbonation. I can do a test to find out with a sealed 2 liter bottle, but I guarantee if anything blows it will be a connection rather than the reactor in the proposed setup. things fail at the weakest point and I am sure this will more likely be a connection. I do a lot of HPLC at work working at pressures up to 10000PSI and connections always fail before anything else. good feedback though..i appreciate your concerns

 

[animalkingdom]

Here is a small solenoid valve that runs off 5V DC. Its rated for up to 72 PSI (and down to low vacuum).

cool I appreciate that

 

[Ron Reefman]

And so the whole point of this exercise is what? Just to see if you can do it? Because it sure looks like a whole lot more work than a CO2 bottle or even a good pair of dosing pumps. I'm all in for DIY or bulk deals on cheaper chemicals, but I don't see any advantage here. Just ask'n.

 

[gbru316]

I am not thinking that the rate will be consistent but more so that the pH controller will modify the rate at which the CO2 enters the reactor. Your concerns on safety apply to a co2 tank and reg as well with a high demand tank that uses pH rather than bubble count to regulate CO2 addition. I am not convinced yet that sealed fermenting yeast will blow up a 2 liter bottle. many beers are bottle with still fermenting yeast to up the carbonation. I can do a test to find out with a sealed 2 liter bottle, but I guarantee if anything blows it will be a connection rather than the reactor in the proposed setup. things fail at the weakest point and I am sure this will more likely be a connection. I do a lot of HPLC at work working at pressures up to 10000PSI and connections always fail before anything else. good feedback though..i appreciate your concerns

I have been homebrewing for years and have had "bottle bombs" in the early days due to adding too much priming sugar, your test isn't necessary. Exploding glass bottles isn't fun. I keg now.


FWIW, Co2 tanks should be hydrostatically tested every few years to ensure integrity, and also feature an emergency vent to ensure they don't rupture.

Again, I do not see this being a practical implementation of a calcium reactor. It's incredibly inefficient (venting gas to the atmosphere, needing to feed organisms to produce gas, etc) and will require a fair amount of work to maintain.

If you're doing this just because you can, that's fine. But don't expect it to come anywhere close to a system fed by pressurized co2, which would probably cost about the same.


As for the design, you're going to need 2 different solenoid valves (1 NO and 1 NC) or an inverting circuit to ensure they operate inversely.

 

[tomservo]

A quick search on ebay reveals that 3 way solenoids are $12 with shipping - incidentally the same kind I have for my CO2 setup from my FW tank. (I just plugged off the connection I didn't use).

FWIW I think this is a bad idea, the sort of thing that's sure to fail in some horrible and unexpected way down the line.. Like the solenoid waste line puking all over or a line clogging and the bottle exploding. In my FW days I read more than a couple horror stories of this sort, and that was without any complications added to the setup.

 

[gbru316]

Expect to pay quite a bit for a PH controller as well. The pinpoint controller is $250. Hanna makes an industrial PH controller that's available for $150, milwaukee has one for around $100 on ebay.

This isn't a "cheap" DIY, by any means.

 

[animalkingdom]

Its not meant to be cheap. I have a reg and CO2 tank. I also have a pH controller (Neptune Jr). I am just curious if it will work...fun experiment. thanks for the comments though I appreciate the feedback. I was just thinking about mixing home brewing with reef keeping. seemed like something fun to try.

 

[animalkingdom]

A quick search on ebay reveals that 3 way solenoids are $12 with shipping - incidentally the same kind I have for my CO2 setup from my FW tank. (I just plugged off the connection I didn't use).

FWIW I think this is a bad idea, the sort of thing that's sure to fail in some horrible and unexpected way down the line.. Like the solenoid waste line puking all over or a line clogging and the bottle exploding. In my FW days I read more than a couple horror stories of this sort, and that was without any complications added to the setup.

Im not seeing these solenoids...mind a link?

 

[gbru316]

Its not meant to be cheap. I have a reg and CO2 tank. I also have a pH controller (Neptune Jr). I am just curious if it will work...fun experiment. thanks for the comments though I appreciate the feedback. I was just thinking about mixing home brewing with reef keeping. seemed like something fun to try.

ever think about enjoying a homebrew while watching your tank?

:beer:

You'll have better results by keeping the processes of the two hobbies separate.