DIY Icecap...its not what you think

24" T12 in series... HELP!

24" T12 in series... HELP!

Okay, I've finally tried this after building a new hood for my 25 tall. I have a GE electronic ballast that drives 2 F40T12 lamps (2 4', 40W bulbs)... the ballast is from HD and the model number is B240R120RH or sku # '43168 80821'.

I want to run 2 24" 20W bulbs in series @ 2 times OD. I can't seem to get the wiring right... already burnt up one ballast! I used the diagram supplied by Canadian Man on the 8th page into this thread... basically, the 2 red and 2 blues wires are tied together and go to one endcap... also taking a jumper wire and jumping the two sides of the endcap. Then taking the 2 yellow wires, tying them together, and then to one side of another endcap... also taking a jumper and jumping the two sides of the endcap together...

Then, the other two endcaps are jumpered together... with small jumpers also connecting both sides of those endcaps together... I've got the ballast wired into a 3-wire plug with the ground connected to the ballast and the ballast simply mounted to the wooden hood...

Why isn't this hookup working?

Scott
 
ScottT,

I think the problem is that you are using a schematic that was intended for instant start ballast on a rapid start ballast. Using a rapid start ballast to overdrive is something that I have not done before, but Stircrazy has tried it before.

In his setup, he wires each blue wire to each red wire. Each blue/red pair is connect to one of bi-pins on the tube #1. The yellow wires are not shorted together...they are connect to each of the pins on tube #2. Between tube#1 and Tube #2, each of the pins (not shorted together) are connected together.

In any case, this is not the recommended solution since I haven't tried it before and I believe these types of ballasts are quite expensive. Also, these types of ballasts are easier to screw up by wiring mistakes - just like the Icecap. The other ballast, instant start type, is easier to work with. Your best bet is to use Fulham ballasts to do this. Fulham will drive all sorts of bulbs, including F20T12s and it is a instant start ballast. The instant start ballasts use the same schematic as shown by Canadian Man. If you need more help, just post another message.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.
 
Thanks Victor... but I'm still confused...

Thanks Victor... but I'm still confused...

Victor,

This is a "2 Lamp Rapid Start Triad Electronic Ballast made by Magnatek". I'm somewhat confused by your reply because in the 1st paragraph you say 'instant start or rapid start... you have not done before' - then in the 3rd paragraph you say 'instant start are easier to work with... and use the schematic as shown by Canadian Man'...?

This ballast was ~$24, not cheap, but not too expensive. This is my second ballast (as I said, the first one burnt up - actually smoked!). When I first wired it up, I did exactly as you said.... because that made sense and matched (basically) to the wiring diagram on the ballast.... when that didn't work, I tried Canadian Man's wiring diagram (except I didn't short the pins between tube #1 and Tube #2.... just wired them as if it was one long 4' tube) and that fried the ballast. When I got the new ballast, I used his diagram WITH the short between #1 and #2 tubes and the bulbs wouldn't light... I unpluged the ballast before it fried (I hope!).

So, this is why I am so confused... the only difference I can see is that my ballast is designed for 2 bulbs and most all the others talked about in this thread are for 4 bulbs. Let me try to describe exactly how this ballast says to wire it up and you can tell me what you would do...

As per the ballast - for wiring 2 4' T12 bulbs... ballast has the following 8 wires: 2 blue, 2 red, 2 yellow, 1 black, 1 white

1 red wire to each pin on end #1 of bulb #1,
1 yellow wire to one pin on end #2 of bulb #1 - shorted with other pin of end #2 on bulb #1,

duplicate wiring for bulb #2 except using the blue wires.

White wire to line (wide blade of recepticle), and black wire to other blade - ground of power cord is connected to ballast body.

I'd really like to make this work with this ballast - don't really want to have to buy another one... unless I can find it at Home Depot... :)

HD does carry a wider variety of electronic T8 ballasts, but the bulbs are more difficult to find... I guess I could use a T8 ballast to drive these... right? From this thread, it seems that I would have to 2 x OD a T12 bulb with a T8 ballast just to effectively achieve normal output on the T12... right?

Thx, I look forward to your response! Scott
 
Running 2 T12s on T8 ballast..

Running 2 T12s on T8 ballast..

Hey ScottT,
I have been running 2 24" T12 bulbs in series on a (4) F32T8 ballast for about 1.5 months... Works great. I don't know the out put,(Hmmm, todays project???) but it is darn bright!
Alan
 
2hi4u2c

2hi4u2c

Yes, please enlighten us... that will be my fallback plan if I can't get this to work.

Also, what is the ballast, is it the one mentioned here so much? If not, where did you get it, and what did it cost?

Thx!
Scott
 
Victor, sorry...

Victor, sorry...

I reread your post a couple more times and finally caught what you said about me trying to use "an instant start wiring diagram on a rapid start ballast"! I kept reading the "on" as "or" and that was what was confusing!

I'm still totally baffled because the wiring setup you described is the way I originally had the wiring connected and it did not work!

Now I've picked up another ballast and want to give that one a try... unfortunately it is also a rapid start ballast, but it is designed to run 4 32W T8 bulbs... I think this one is fairly similar to the one others are using except that it is 'rapid' start instead of 'instant' start.

So, this ballast has 2 red, 2 blue, 2 yellow, and black and white. Again, I want to run 2 24" T12 bulbs in series with this ballast... if I'm thinking right, this will really only be driving the T12 bulbs 2 times since the ballast is designed for T8 bulbs...

So, how do I wire it?

Option #1:
Tie all blue and red wires together and then into end A of bulb #1 - shorting pins together. Tie yellow wires together and into end A of bulb #2 - shorting pins together. Connect the pins of the B ends of the bulbs together WITHOUT shorting across the pins.

Option #2:
Same as option #1 except DO SHORT across all pins on the "B" ends of the 2 bulbs.

Option #3:
Tie one blue to one red and connect to one pin on end "A" of bulb #1. Tie other blue and red and connect to the other pin on end "A" of bulb #1. Connect each yellow wire to one pin on end "A" of bulb #2. Connect one pin on end "B" of bulb #1 to one pin on end "B" of bulb #2... duplicate for other pin (effectively no shorting of pins on ANY end of bulbs).

2hi4u2c
is your ballast rapid start or instant start? Did you tie all blues and reds together or make blue/red pairs and tie one to each pin? How did you connect the 2 bulbs together... one pin to one pin - no shorting, or all 4 pins together?

Thx!
Scott
 
Update (it's been so long since I posted :) )

Okay, the 4x32 T8 ballast is NOT rapid start, it is INSTANT start. So, this means I can simply wire all blue and red wires together and connect them to BOTH pins on one bulb... do the same with the yellows...

So, for the connection between the 2 bulbs (since I want to run 2 24" bulbs in series), I'm still confused.... I guess it's because I don't fully understand how these bulbs work, but...

Here's the question:
Is there actually a difference between connecting the pins from one bulb to the other (without shorting the pins together) versus doing the same thing but shorting the pins together? I find it difficult to accept why they'd need to be shorted together and then connected from one bulb to the other?

I know Canadian Man shorted them in his "2-bulb in series" wiring diagram on page 8 of this thread, but ReefDragon didn't in his wiring explanation on page 2... I guess both options work, but I'm not sure I'm comparing apples to apples (or ballasts to ballasts)..

If anyone can shed some light on this I'd appreciate it!
Scott
 
reefburnaby said:
ScottT,

I think the problem is that you are using a schematic that was intended for instant start ballast on a rapid start ballast. Using a rapid start ballast to overdrive is something that I have not done before, but Stircrazy has tried it before.

In his setup, he wires each blue wire to each red wire. Each blue/red pair is connect to one of bi-pins on the tube #1. The yellow wires are not shorted together...they are connect to each of the pins on tube #2. Between tube#1 and Tube #2, each of the pins (not shorted together) are connected together.

In any case, this is not the recommended solution since I haven't tried it before and I believe these types of ballasts are quite expensive. Also, these types of ballasts are easier to screw up by wiring mistakes - just like the Icecap. The other ballast, instant start type, is easier to work with. Your best bet is to use Fulham ballasts to do this. Fulham will drive all sorts of bulbs, including F20T12s and it is a instant start ballast. The instant start ballasts use the same schematic as shown by Canadian Man. If you need more help, just post another message.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.
Click to expand...

Victor, I stoped following this thread about 6 pages ago for two reasons, the first is that information is getting all screwed up as this thread is to long with to many different ideas.. take for example what you just quoted me as doing.. I have done it both ways on both types of ballasts.. and no problems.

I have shorted all wires togeather and also I have run them seperatly.. both ways worked.. the problem I can see hapening with others is that series is not the best way to run things for a normal ballast as you realy must make sure the ballast you are buying is capable of handling it..

the second reason I stopped following this thread is throught testing I have determaned that by overdriving you can not come close to the power you will get out of VHO or PC :eek2: how dare I say that in this holy thread of overdriving ...
but numbers don't lie.. a 4X overdriven T12 actinic has aproximatly 1/10 of the PAR of a VHO being run at full power (not IceCap power :rolleyes: ) and the pricce of actinic bulbs is not much cheeper than just buying a URI VHO (about 4.00 cheeper for a T8 actinic than a VHO)

and a Overdriven 36" daylight bulb is about 1/5th that of a 96 watt 6500K PC and about 1/4 that of a 96 watt 10000K PC. the other thing to concider is that the overdriven bulb has to be changed more often that either of the other two I have mentiond.

I used to say you don't need MH either but after witnessing the increase in growth by adding one 175 watt MH to my tank I will no longer say that either.. but I do not say that you only need MH, in my opinion the best system uses VHO for actinic, PC for Daylight and MH for the simulation of the hot afternoon sun.

there were some threads going around saying that a 96 watt PC compares to a 175 watt MH.. this is 1/2 truths.. at 3" they are so close it isn't funny but then add watter and a more realistic distance (In my opinion a measurment at 3" is a total waist of time and not usefull for any realistic data at all) I do all my measurments at 12" and only the first 5" are air.

at this Depth the PChas 1/2 the PAR as the 175 watt MH and the spread gets worse as you get deeper.. so the intensity of a MH cannot be betten for penatration into your tank.

there are Valid uses for overdriving.. as in 1, you all ready have the set up and can't aford to buy new stuff for a while, 2 you only want a little more light for your mushrooms, and 3 you are board and want something to do (the latter was my case ;) )

If you look at what I spent on overdriving and testing different methods of overdriving and my PAR sensor and multimeter I could have bought a kick *** light system a long time ago :rolleyes:

so as long as you are having fun all the power to you but if you think you are going to find the ultimat lighting system ... you better look again.. you can slightly improve on a NO system but you will not make it better than a VHO or PC system.

JMHO

Steve
 
Hi Steve,

Well...I started this thread. And I intend to stay long as long as people are still relatively friendly and need help.

It wasn't that long ago when Icecap introduce there "revolutionary" ballast that changed the face of reefing as we know it. They made a little ballast that could push NO to levels that are similar to VHOs. Of course, the catch was the price...at $200 - $300 CAD a pop, this is one expensive ballast.

So, the whole goal was to emulate that ballast with a industrial version that cost less (1/4 to 1/8th the LFS cost). I took the time to figure how it works and why it works. So, that's the whole idea. It wasn't intended to replace MH or HQI. The goal is basically...DIY Icecap...as the title says.

As for your comments regarding overdriving being unable to compete with PC and VHOs...notice you use the word T12. This thread is about T8s and T12s are a bit different. :) To overdrive a T12 to similar levels, you'll need a WH and quite a different arrangement. You are basically taking a T8 4x overdrive configuration and blindly replacing it with a T12 lamp. Sorry...they don't work quite like that. As for the PCs...I am not even sure what your current configuration is for those lamps. I am not even sure if you are slightly overdriving them since you seemed to mention in past messages that you are using a slightly different wiring configuration than what fulham is using. And yes... I have overdriven PCs a long time ago...accidently.

From past messages, your 175W lighting was pretty close to my ~150W overdrive. Also, keep in mind that I am assuming that you don't need actinics for your 175W lighting. From what I recall, 175W are only really useful for the first 2 feet of coverage. Since my tank is 4 feet...we'll need two of 175W. We are now up to 350W and I am also assuming we are using a state of the art electronic ballast for the MH. 350W vs 150W...if their PAR numbers are close...it is really not a good day for MH.

PC...again can we consider that actinics are not required ? Again...if we do...this requires more result skewing. So, it really is quite tricky to compare these lighting systems. BTW, PC are more efficent than T8s...so they should be better.

Keep in mind that not everybody needs killer lighting since not everybody keeps light loving corals like SPS. So, two or three tubes of lighting is all that is really required for softies and LPS. In some instances, too much lighting is a bad thing.

ScottT,

As for forming a the connection between the two 2 footers, both methods will work. The two pins are seperated because they are used for rapid start applications (its kind of like a little heating fillament inside the tube...each pin connects one side of the fillament). In instant start applications, both pins are shorted together since the heating fillament is not used. In instant start, a high voltage is presented between the ends of the tube. The high voltage causes an arc between the two tube ends and it ignites the mercury vapour. The electrical connection between the two 2 foot tubes forms the electrical connection such that the high voltage arc is form between the two tubes (50% in one, and 50% in the other). So to short or not to short ? Electrically, they are so similar that their differences are insignificant :) Slight advange to shorting though....

I think I am getting lazy (or tired), but I hope that explaination is clearer that the previous one. I think I am going to need to start a web page just to hold all of the FAQs in one section.

- Victor.
 
Victor, thanks for the lesson on flouresent bulbs! It does make more sense now and I'm happy to say that the 4x32 T8 ballast fired straight away!... I'm actually replacing the stock lighting (18" T8) with 2 2-times OD 24" T12... since I don't have the actinic bulb yet I'm using one 24" T12 Daylight and the 18" T8 Coral life 50/50 bulb from my original lightstrip... Thx again for all your help!

I'm still trying to figure out if I'd be better off with the URI Super Actinic NO or VHO bulb? It should be roughly driven 2 times...

Steve, thank you too for all the help - and the follow up with your conclusions.

Happy Lighting!
Scott
 
reefburnaby, just a side note, I know that u where having trouble with T-8 actinic bulbs. Just tried the coralife actinic 03, and man that t-8 tube SUCKS @#%!!! purchased a MARINE-GLO by ?. It is a t-8 bulb and seems to have good blue color, just fyi.
 
Workhorse?

Workhorse?

Can the workhorse line drive both a VHO and a PC at the same time?

If I wanted to run a 55W PC white bulb and a 75W URI T12 Super Actinic, can it be done?

Which ballast, and how to wire?
 
Re: Workhorse?

Re: Workhorse?

ScottT said:
Can the workhorse line drive both a VHO and a PC at the same time?

If I wanted to run a 55W PC white bulb and a 75W URI T12 Super Actinic, can it be done?

Which ballast, and how to wire?
Click to expand...

yes it can, you can use 2 wires for each bulb.

Steve
 
H2OENG & Scott T,

H2OENG & Scott T,

I appologize for the delay, I was out of town for work.. My ballast is an instant start, If anyone still has ?'s on wireing, let me know, and I will do a mock-up and snap a shot of it.
Alan
 
Thanks Steve! suggestions on which one would be the best choice for a 55W PC and 75W VHO setup?

Alan, no problem - got is working now that I'm using an instant start ballast... thx.
 
ScottT said:
Thanks Steve! suggestions on which one would be the best choice for a 55W PC and 75W VHO setup?

Alan, no problem - got is working now that I'm using an instant start ballast... thx.
Click to expand...

how long is the tank you are talking about?

Steve
 
Newbie

Newbie

OK, sounds like a great way to save money! Starting my first marine reef. I have had fish/invert before and a reef system that I had maintained at teh office.

My 200 gal is on order (4 weeks). In the meantime I am putting together the rest of the parts, building the cabinets (furniture grade quarter sawn oak), etc.

What should I plan, using this system? 4 or 6 lights? Color? Length?
 
Steve, this lighting is for a 24" tank... that's why I thought a 55W PC (~22") and a 24" VHO (75W, I think). I think I just need to run these two for decent lighting... hopefully the combination of 55W Daylight and 75W Actinic will have a good look...

What do you suggest for this lighting? Thx, Scott
 
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