DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[saltydog64]

I tried last night and the bloody thing was leaking...thanks for the bucket hint...I drained most of the water out and left the sulfur and arm in there. Hope i did not mess anything up. It was late and I get my PMS moment when sleepy so rushed and re applyed the cleaner and contact cement. I put a piece of clothe on top of the arm as where I was applying the glue was at the effluent end. I hope nothing got in the ARM. I plan to rinse it again and try again. BTW my nitrates are arround 40 ppms. Thank you Saltydog for all your wisdom...Hopefully you can teach this young dawg some new tricks!

Glad I could help.........if the leaks persists AND it's on the effluent end as you said, AND your fix DOSESN'T work AND your eff. line isn't to close to the end cap (the top) just cut it off and replace it with new fitting as the only drilling and tapping you had to do is for the VV (vent valve) on the top. Even if you placed you eff.valve to close top fitting, you could just cut it off (the top fitting) and all you would lose is only an inch or two on the OAL...leaks can be a hard cure without a redo...

Do I understand you to say you're gone 2 or 3 every week...??? I wish I had an answer for you on this... only to say you CANNOT leave the VV open..just for that reason..it's a vent valve...if you leave it always open two things for sure will happen...first the unit is now NOT sealed and as such willn't work as it must be AIR tight..period, and secondly with the VV open you will get an slow but stream of water out of it not good...

Others are working on some of auto on/off valve ??? say........ having just said that ..a light came on:lol::lol:...way back... when we where feeding a sugar source to an experimental denitrifier (feeding drops of sugar into a closed unit) I used an electric solonoid valve, tiny little sucker and I controlled it with timer to open for very short periods ( a minute or 2) to drop in small amounts of sugar... with the low pressure in there I think it would work:fun2::fun2:currently my unit is recylcing and I'm day 7 and this am I vented gas out the valve for 3 minutes....yep 3. When I first noticed gas on day 2 it vented for about 60 secs....My tank Nitrate 80 PPM (total Nitrate) not NO3-N (as measured by kits like LaMotte,which I use, along with API which reports in total NO3...and is also good kit for this work.

I'll look around to see if I still have it and if so I'll post a pic or 2..... gott'n run SU is coming on.............go Orange !!!!!

hope this helps in small way...

 

[thi7b]

Should I put one on as my nitrate is 2 on salifert scale. I have a lx midwest sulrfur denitrator just sitting around.

 

[saltydog64]

Should I put one on as my nitrate is 2 on salifert scale. I have a lx midwest sulrfur denitrator just sitting around.

thi7b..........I'm familiar with that kit, but if your're referring to 2 PPM of nitrate AND not trying to the MOST difficulant to keep..........NO ! of course IME...my feeling is for the average reef (what-ever that is) anything in the ranage of 5 to 10 PPM is "propably" ok ! I think trying to maintain ZERO is somewhat overkill ( I can hear the "purists" now) and I'm initialed to opinion right ???.

 

[saltydog64]

Maybe using an other calcium media ore/ and more will solve the problem? Aragonite is a form of calcium that is more stable than calcite, it don't disolve as easy as calcite.
The French pioneers and investigators of DN with sulfur systems used "maerl" as calcium sorce ( +- 32% CaCo3 and 3,1%MgCo3 Wikipedia) and dit not report much problems with Ph. They advise 1% sulfur and minimum the same volume of calcium media better 2x. This would bind the produced SO4 also.
Using 1% sulfur gives the possebility to play with the effluent to regulate the amount of H+ depending of the amount of Nitrate. This way calcium and PH can be corrected. Nitrate controlled. The smaller the system volume the more difficult it is to regulate.
When using aragonite only I would advice to use 1% sulfur so the effluent can easely be regulated to 1x the volume of sulfur because there is need for a more accid effluent to disolve the aragonite. The less sulfur used, the more difficult regulating the effluent. Sulfur is not expensive.
The main factor of the amount of sulfur is the bio-load of the system. The DN must be sufficient to ellimenate the bioload every day added (skimmer?), plus the Nitrate cumulated in the system. Once the DN eliminated the amount cummulated you can and must bring it down to a stable amount that is controlable by you. So the effluent flow must be increased? Here I am also limited bij the amount of Sulfur otherwise I will create nitrite?
Depending of the efficiency of the skimmer used, less than 1% suflur is needed but makes it more difficult to control all parameters as I can conclude of the above.
To have a stable running DN System I think it is better to keep +- 2 -5 ppm Nitrate in the system instead of going for O Nitrate.

BA.........I think what your saying makes sense......."To have a stable running DN System I think it is better to keep +- 2 -5 ppm Nitrate in the system instead of going for O Nitrate" I couldn't agree more.

I'm still not sure "the average" reef-keeper (including me) can run a SR or "DN" as you say on continious bases....to many challages with ever dropping pH, ALK, ect.....

As far the formation of Nitrite due to the amount of Sulfur in the SR... I'm not 100% sure that is completly accurate...rather it's formation during the maturation of the " developing bacteria cycle".. Nitrite @ the effluent is more due to FLOW-RATE thru the unit....... IME...Nitrite will be formed during this portion as it's apart of the Denitrication process...now rather we detect it (or even need to) or not will largely be depended on the FR thru the unit.

Now as our tank gets down to our hoped for level of Nitrate AND now we have a detectable level of Nitrite in the effluent... well.... "Huston we've a problem".........I would first LOWER the amount of S in the SR and check again ......if it persists I would think the daily production of Nitrate in the tank willn't support the use of the SR and I would take it off line ...IME...

 

[thi7b]

saltydog64
Yes, it's 2ppm. ok I should hold off on it.

thi7b..........I'm familiar with that kit, but if your're referring to 2 PPM of nitrate AND not trying to the MOST difficulant to keep..........NO ! of course IME...my feeling is for the average reef (what-ever that is) anything in the ranage of 5 to 10 PPM is "propably" ok ! I think trying to maintain ZERO is somewhat overkill ( I can hear the "purists" now) and I'm initialed to opinion right ???.

 

[saltydog64]

MIni-Soleniod Valve

MIni-Soleniod Valve

I forgot to ask...Is degassing every day necessary. I am out of town for 3 or 4 days at a time and was wondering about that. Can I just leave it open all the time. What is everyones take on that. AND indeed a big thanks to DJ for all the research and work for us to follow.

.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, this valve must be kept close and as promised..........:strange::strange: I found that mini-valve I once used (back in '94) man time flyes......anyhow I think this could work and might solve your out of town issues for venting the SR, (others have also showed an interest in this)...The valve could be cycled with a digital timer or your controller if you have one. I say digital because the "old fashion" type are only good for about a 15 min on/off cyle which is to long of an "on-cycle" we'll be using anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5mins for degassing.

The unit is a Mini-Solenoid with 1/4" input/output and is "normally closed" and dosesn't require any pressure to op. I'm sure we can adapt any necceasry fittings to it for our 1/4" pipe.....I'm sure day it's pricey as back then I paid $$ 26 for it and today I sure it's 2x that, but it could be well worth it...

Let me know how this will work out for you....here is the site for the mini :

http://circlevalve.thomasnet.com/it...1000-series-solenoid-valves/1000-f4j?&seo=110

hope this helps.........

 

[retroblew]

.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, this valve must be kept close and as promised..........:strange::strange: I found that mini-valve I once used (back in '94) man time flyes......anyhow I think this could work and might solve your out of town issues for venting the SR, (others have also showed an interest in this)...The valve could be cycled with a digital timer or your controller if you have one. I say digital because the "old fashion" type are only good for about a 15 min on/off cyle which is to long of an "on-cycle" we'll be using anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5mins for degassing.

The unit is a Mini-Solenoid with 1/4" input/output and is "normally closed" and dosesn't require any pressure to op. I'm sure we can adapt any necceasry fittings to it for our 1/4" pipe.....I'm sure day it's pricey as back then I paid $$ 26 for it and today I sure it's 2x that, but it could be well worth it...

Let me know how this will work out for you....here is the site for the mini :

http://circlevalve.thomasnet.com/it...1000-series-solenoid-valves/1000-f4j?&seo=110

hope this helps.........

the longest i will be out of town is a week. what happens if i dont release the valve for a week? when I open to degass the only thing that comes out is water, I still have a leak, but it is very small and it is in my sump so I don't know if that matters...you are right a redo may be in order!

 

[triton3d]

OK guys, veryyy interested in the SD. any CONS using sulfur in reef tanks?? a friend of mine told me: be carefull with sulfur,it could kill your corals... help please!!! i have mi nitrates at 40ppm right now...

Thanks
Mike

 

[saltydog64]

the longest i will be out of town is a week. what happens if i dont release the valve for a week? when I open to degass the only thing that comes out is water, I still have a leak, but it is very small and it is in my sump so I don't know if that matters...you are right a redo may be in order!

Morning rb.............I can "only" guess on this as I or as far as I know this sitsuation as not been addressed before, but that doesn't mean we can't try to figure it out...right ???. First I would think the FR (flow-rate) would be adversly affected, even though the actual "pressure" of nitrogen gas will be low it could still make the FR in-consistant at best. During the initial developement of the bacteria in the SR, FR is critical as too fast you'll get very high Nitrite, with or little change in Nitrate, while too slow you "could" get H2S (hydrogen sulfide, that rotten egg smell, so FR control is every thing.....IME.

Right now the reason you're only getting water as it's still way to early in that start-up stage......believe me you'll get LOTS of GAS @ the VV(vent valve) as you go along.

If the leak is VERY small and you can determine the 24 hour amount, you can or could consider this towards total FR (this is exactly what I had to do during my recent restart ( because the SR was in bucket I could collect it and measure it, the leak was 2000cc/24 hours) ...but guess what? as I write this the leak as all but stopped, this is probably due to grunk or crud getting into the leak and actually "sealing" it....so if yours is small that could happen in your case.

In my case the total FR ( 2000cc leak plus about 2600cc @ effluent) was 1d/2sec,, (this is slower than the 1d/sec recommended),but that was mine and I got zero @ eff. in 4 days, (for what it's worth my tubing flows @ 10 drops/cc) ..of course I have bumped it over the course of a week or more to 5d/sec. After first getting zero, then and only then start SLOWLY increasing FR.....of course we can't count 5d/sec so what you'll do is first dertermine how many drops/cc you flow at by counting them into a sample tube for example..or any flask that you measure accurately with, then as go along use this device to collect effluent then that times by known d/cc, this divided by time and you'll determine YOUR FR......if that's not clear let know and I'll try again...

 

[triton3d]

Hello.. just have a question.. when i hit (0) nitrates, do i have to turn the reactor off??

Mike

 

[saltydog64]

Hello.. just have a question.. when i hit (0) nitrates, do i have to turn the reactor off??

Mike

Mike.............whew that's a HUGE ???? why? so many things will determine your abliity to maintain a low NO3.....is a true ZERO needed....IME no! but it could also and does depend on what's in your tank, what you trying to keep u get the pic.........

Now if your NO3 do get to ZERO and your ALK and pH are out of control which can happen without your input...........why ? SR's do and will adversly them. The reaction(s) occuring in the SR will "acidify" the output water...period! it's the nature of the beast...

If you what to run the SR continously you will have to reduce the Sulfur in it and determine a safe operating mode with out producing H2S (hydrogen sulfide, rotten egg smell).....your best bet is to go back thru this thread...ya ya I know it's HUGE but no getting around it if u what to be sucessfull in running one of these....

good luck ( happy reading)

 

[triton3d]

Mike.............whew that's a HUGE ???? why? so many things will determine your abliity to maintain a low NO3.....is a true ZERO needed....IME no! but it could also and does depend on what's in your tank, what you trying to keep u get the pic.........

Now if your NO3 do get to ZERO and your ALK and pH are out of control which can happen without your input...........why ? SR's do and will adversly them. The reaction(s) occuring in the SR will "acidify" the output water...period! it's the nature of the beast...

If you what to run the SR continously you will have to reduce the Sulfur in it and determine a safe operating mode with out producing H2S (hydrogen sulfide, rotten egg smell).....your best bet is to go back thru this thread...ya ya I know it's HUGE but no getting around it if u what to be sucessfull in running one of these....

good luck ( happy reading)

Thanks!!! i have a 75g with a 15g sump. i think it could be 70g because the LR, ect, i calculated the sulfur at 60g, could that help?? can i keep it ON by having a heavy load,heavy feeding,ect.. i there something similar to sulfur that i can use?

Thanks
Mike

 

[retroblew]

Morning rb.............I can "only" guess on this as I or as far as I know this sitsuation as not been addressed before, but that doesn't mean we can't try to figure it out...right ???. First I would think the FR (flow-rate) would be adversly affected, even though the actual "pressure" of nitrogen gas will be low it could still make the FR in-consistant at best. During the initial developement of the bacteria in the SR, FR is critical as too fast you'll get very high Nitrite, with or little change in Nitrate, while too slow you "could" get H2S (hydrogen sulfide, that rotten egg smell, so FR control is every thing.....IME.

Right now the reason you're only getting water as it's still way to early in that start-up stage......believe me you'll get LOTS of GAS @ the VV(vent valve) as you go along.

If the leak is VERY small and you can determine the 24 hour amount, you can or could consider this towards total FR (this is exactly what I had to do during my recent restart ( because the SR was in bucket I could collect it and measure it, the leak was 2000cc/24 hours) ...but guess what? as I write this the leak as all but stopped, this is probably due to grunk or crud getting into the leak and actually "sealing" it....so if yours is small that could happen in your case.

In my case the total FR ( 2000cc leak plus about 2600cc @ effluent) was 1d/2sec,, (this is slower than the 1d/sec recommended),but that was mine and I got zero @ eff. in 4 days, (for what it's worth my tubing flows @ 10 drops/cc) ..of course I have bumped it over the course of a week or more to 5d/sec. After first getting zero, then and only then start SLOWLY increasing FR.....of course we can't count 5d/sec so what you'll do is first dertermine how many drops/cc you flow at by counting them into a sample tube for example..or any flask that you measure accurately with, then as go along use this device to collect effluent then that times by known d/cc, this divided by time and you'll determine YOUR FR......if that's not clear let know and I'll try again...

Hey saltydog64, I am at day 2.5 and you are right no more leak. A small grout must of loudged in there. so I am at 1 dps for the last 2 days. This morning I test the water out of the effleunt and it was high in nitrites and nitrates, but nitrates in the tank are still hold steady at 40 ppms. I think something is working because my feeding pattern is the same for the past 5 days but system nitrates are holding steady. Also, when I added the sulfur I did not use the entire 3.5 pounds I only used half. It may take longer for it to work, and that is fine. I just want to be clear when you are taking about flow rate you are talking about flow rate out of effleunt and not controlling the flow rate going in the reactor? Sorry I writers A.D.D., if there is such a thing. As always thanks...

 

[triton3d]

Hey saltydog64, I am at day 2.5 and you are right no more leak. A small grout must of loudged in there. so I am at 1 dps for the last 2 days. This morning I test the water out of the effleunt and it was high in nitrites and nitrates, but nitrates in the tank are still hold steady at 40 ppms. I think something is working because my feeding pattern is the same for the past 5 days but system nitrates are holding steady. Also, when I added the sulfur I did not use the entire 3.5 pounds I only used half. It may take longer for it to work, and that is fine. I just want to be clear when you are taking about flow rate you are talking about flow rate out of effleunt and not controlling the flow rate going in the reactor? Sorry I writers A.D.D., if there is such a thing. As always thanks...

are you putting the nitrites back in the DT water? or is your effluent dripping in a bucket?

Mike

 

[retroblew]

are you putting the nitrites back in the DT water? or is your effluent dripping in a bucket?

Mike

I am putting it in my protein skimmer inlet which is in my sump. I may have gotten confused in my readings...but like I said nitrates are holding steady. I will check when I get home again...hope I did that right:fun5:

 

[saltydog64]

Hey saltydog64, I am at day 2.5 and you are right no more leak. A small grout must of loudged in there. so I am at 1 dps for the last 2 days. This morning I test the water out of the effleunt and it was high in nitrites and nitrates, but nitrates in the tank are still hold steady at 40 ppms. I think something is working because my feeding pattern is the same for the past 5 days but system nitrates are holding steady. Also, when I added the sulfur I did not use the entire 3.5 pounds I only used half. It may take longer for it to work, and that is fine. I just want to be clear when you are taking about flow rate you are talking about flow rate out of effleunt and not controlling the flow rate going in the reactor? Sorry I writers A.D.D., if there is such a thing. As always thanks...

Glad I can help....

That is good news on the leak....sometimes we get lucky, also good that you didn't use all the Sulfur......it willn't go bad and be used another day. As far as Nitrate goes you willn't see any change in the Main tank for sometime as is going to take awhile to process it ONCE the Nitrate out of the SR is ZERO and flowing @ max....The FR (flow rate) is controlled @ the effluent outlet.

At you current FR, 1dps, you WILL get to ZERO and when you do then and only then bump up the FR to 2dsp wait to zero, continue to do this until you get a slow, steady stream out of it ( what ever the heck that is ). Remember to degas daily @ the VV (vent valve), once the thing cycles the amount of gas will be very small and no longer an issue....as will Nitrite no longer be detected.....now as hard as will be to believe the Nitrate ( along with Nitrite) coming out of the SR (during cycling) will be (could be) HIGHER than the main tank...it's the nature of the beast...

On degassing @ the vent valve I mentioned before about using a solenoid valve in place of the vent valve...well for it's worth...I had a mini-valve and I hooked it up last night....yes for some (including me) it's over kill, but I had it and I just had to try.....it works like a charm...pretty slick :rollface::rollface:

Contined good luck !!!!!!!!!

 

[EWC88]

Where do you guys find those acyrlic cylinders?

 

[retroblew]

Where do you guys find those acyrlic cylinders?

Many in this forum get the acyrlic from mrc.com, but the one that dj frankie start is just plain ole pvc pipe 4". It is cheap and easy and if you are like me and mess up the first time al ya have to do is go back to lowes...hope that helps.

 

[saltydog64]

I am putting it in my protein skimmer inlet which is in my sump. I may have gotten confused in my readings...but like I said nitrates are holding steady. I will check when I get home again...hope I did that right:fun5:

rb.............Putting your effluent into your skimmer is an excellant idea for couple of reasons....first there is the thought that any H2S that could be formed "could" be reduced in an highly oxidized zone as surly your skimmer is, also the same could be said for any Nitrites passing thru as they also "could" be oxidized by the skimmer. I don't think you will detect any NO2 in your DT...IME

It sounds like your running a Aqua-C in that sump......a excellant, easy to maintain skimmer.........and putting the eff. into the JohnQuest fitting...

 

[retroblew]

rb.............Putting your effluent into your skimmer is an excellant idea for couple of reasons....first there is the thought that any H2S that could be formed "could" be reduced in an highly oxidized zone as surly your skimmer is, also the same could be said for any Nitrites passing thru as they also "could" be oxidized by the skimmer. I don't think you will detect any NO2 in your DT...IME

It sounds like your running a Aqua-C in that sump......a excellant, easy to maintain skimmer.........and putting the eff. into the JohnQuest fitting...

Saltydog64, I am actually running a super reef xp-2000 skimmer. I am teeing it above water so I can count the drip rate and then connect back to the tee. I just tested the water from the effluent and it is now close to zero if not zero. I ran out of nitrate drops and had to use strips. any how I increased the drip rate to 2 dps. As far as Alk and Ph they will both go down or will ph go down and alk go up. right now my alk is a bit high but ph is 8.2. Thanks for all your help...it is going better than i hoped thanks...:beer: