DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[CHSUB]

Small reactors do work! They can reduce and remove nitrate. What I am talking about is a denitrator system that has the capacity to close the nitrogen cycle completely so it must be able to control the nitrate level at the level you desire at high daily production of nitrate. The denitrationsystem must be matched with the aquariumsystem in a way to make this possible.
This is not possible with other denitration methods. Autotrofe denitration on sulfur will start at a much higher oxygen level as heterotrophe denitration. The reactor is much less sensitive for oxygen fluctuations and the bacteria will start to work at a positive ORP (+- 50mv I think) ..so a lot more flow is possible if the reactor is big enough. Big enough to give time and space to deplete the oxygen entered.
Passing the total volume true the reactor is not the max. Tests have proven that a sulfur-denitrator still can remove some nitrate at a flow of 10liter/h/liter. This is 240 x This test was made with tube reactors by Hignette.
Michel Hignette, Benoît Lamort, Marc Langouet, Sebastien Leroy and Guy Martin used and tested sulfur reactors for years. The system I use is based on their invention and their work.

I do not use high tech because I find it not necessary. When used as part of the system there is no need for measuring the effluent frequently. Once in balance it will be self regulating within its limits. We just relay on our regular nitrate measurement of the system water. We have PH reading in the reactor and one after the skimmer., From time to time we have to adjust the flow a bit but not every month.
We where making tests to automate the system but as it stays steady there is nothing to adjust, so why automation of flow regulation? if nitrate increases unsuspectingly we have day's to adjust.

At high flow, which means low nitrate levels and high production, only +- 20% of the reactors capacity will be used for denitration, +- 80% for removing oxygen. The reactor must be big enough to remove the oxygen entered and keep enough space for removing the daily nitrate production...

My point of view, ORP can be used to keep reactors anaerobic when they are used just to reduce some nitrate at low flow, but how to manage the nitrate level with ORP readings, I have no clue. We have tried it but we were not able to manage our reactors based on ORP. But why using ORP when it can be managed easily without?

The maximum flow you can achieve is 8x the reactors volume each day..
Is this the max to keep ORP negative or is nitrate or/and nitrite present in the effluent? As I can remember you have a large reactor. How big is large and how large is the total system? Also the present nitrate level of the system water is needed to make an evaluation.

my reactor and use of sulfur is based on Marc Langouet, also!!! his findings are well known by many on this thread. here is the link.

http://http://mars.reefkeepers.net/USHomePage/USArticles/SulphurDenitrator.htm

however, his flow rates are not possible, imo and ime. maybe the translation is wrong?

if i increase the flow too much, i get no3 in the effluent. from Marc L.

"- If the flow rate is too high, you will detect nitrites or nitrates in the output water.
- If the flow rate is correct, you should obtain 0 nitrates"

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Most junk science is bundled in the Makazi Baharini wiki.

:lol:
Do I have to go to Makaazi ,a province in Iran to read it? If you are citing a written work to claim authority for your posts ;it's common courtesy to provide a useable link. It may just be that the interpretations put forth are poor .Without context it's meaningless.

Makazi Baharini is Swahili for Home in the sea.

Makazi Baharine only repeats in the BADESS section once again parts of what I have posted although some information is more detailed. it contains only old information and junk science. Nothing of which you may be interested in; As the English translation is not referenced yet we will close the wiki till this is finished.
The information in the BADESS section is only for people who are interested in building an old fashion reliable BADES system based on science of the past.. You have the expertise in " How to manage a sulphur denitrator"
and knows all the answers about " how much sulfur to use" . So, the BADESS section of the wiki will be of no interest for you.

And I am just helping to translate, I am not the author. And yes, I needed authorization for some of my posts.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

my reactor and use of sulfur is based on Marc Langouet, also!!! his findings are well known by many on this thread. here is the link.

http://http://mars.reefkeepers.net/USHomePage/USArticles/SulphurDenitrator.htm

however, his flow rates are not possible, imo and ime. maybe the translation is wrong?

if i increase the flow too much, i get no3 in the effluent. from Marc L.

"- If the flow rate is too high, you will detect nitrites or nitrates in the output water.
- If the flow rate is correct, you should obtain 0 nitrates"

And how long did you wait to give time for the reactor to adapt to the new situation?
To evaluate this I need the total systems volume,'( 250 gal?) the reactors volume of sulfur and the nitrate level present in the system.

 

[CHSUB]

Do you have any pics or anything of the conversion or mods you did? I picked it up used and haven't even touched it since I got it.

sorry, but no...

 

[CHSUB]

And how long did you wait to give time for the reactor to adapt to the new situation?
To evaluate this I need the total systems volume,'( 250 gal?) the reactors volume of sulfur and the nitrate level present in the system.

here is example why increasing flow is not possible.

320 g system
2.5 g sulfur
dt no3 <1ppm to max 2.5
dosing pump on @ ORP-206
dosing pump off @ ORP-199
orp peaks out at ~-245

in the being of the on cycle of reactor(orp@-206) effluent's no3 completely clear on Salifert's no3 tester. 20-30 minutes later, dosing pump on during this time, when dosing pump is about to turn off(orp back to -200) Salifert tester shows a slight pink in the effluent.

although adding more sulfur would help, i still will never get to your "impossible" flow rates. imo, the dt should turn over in about 18 days not every day.

 

[CHSUB]

Do you have any pics or anything of the conversion or mods you did? I picked it up used and haven't even touched it since I got it.

also....if you look at my pic, you will see straps around unit: 2 white, 1 metal. important you do the same. the 2 white ones hold plate inside level, otherwise sulfur falls to bottom of unit. metal one just keeps it from losing form. it is very thin material.

 

[BROTHERSPIZZERIA]

also....if you look at my pic, you will see straps around unit: 2 white, 1 metal. important you do the same. the 2 white ones hold plate inside level, otherwise sulfur falls to bottom of unit. metal one just keeps it from losing form. it is very thin material.

Thank you

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I do get it. Just don't see any benefit of hearing you say the same thing over and over . You've filled pages with your opinions and mistatements and convoluted views of bacterial reactions and chemistry,misrepresentation of my statements and those of others while shifitng your own and on and on. Enough. There are pages of this type of gibberish already:


continue to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily ........ when the incoming water contains less nitrate...

that's nonsensical and doesn't warrant a response. So is this:

Your opinion is more sulfur and more sulfur not much else ; I disagree. The needed sulfur volume relates to the volume of nitrate in the water.

Several folks have discussed this with an open mind and thoroughly starting back at post 1249 but any rational fact based discussion is dismissed or misrepresented or replaced by your opinions and musings presented as absolute fact. Your posts are full of bad stuff about the chemistry and bacterial activity and inconsistent in most respects . Going over it all again is pointless and displaces any potential learning from more pithy inquiries.

First of all, what I am posting is not an opinion. Facts are what they are.
One can not remove what is not entered. At low nitrate levels more water has to be processed as necessary at more elevated nitrate levels to remove the same quantity of nitrate. More oxygen has to be removed and the same anaerobic space is needed to remove the daily production. Result: the reactor needed has to be bigger at low levels as would be necessary at high nitrate levels to reduce the level or keep the level steady.
Some posts advice to use smaller reactors at low nitrate levels, not taking in account the daily production, but do not explain how this reactor will remove the same production. When asked it seems to be not important and the word junk science is used when prove is given. Using smaller reactors when the level is decreased to a lower level is possible, but only when the reactor used was to big at the start.

As the daily production of nitrate is not essential, please explain how a high the nitrate level in an aquarium system can be reduced to a lower level. Please explain how a nitrate level of 1ppm can be kept at 1 ppm. What will be essential in your point of view? And please explain why! What are the parameters for a successful sulfur-denitrator?
Answering very basic and logic questions are avoided. Why?
There is nothing wrong by making mistakes, it is a learning process.
Every body makes mistakes.
There are no such things as stupid questions, only stupid answers.
An African saying: Problems don't exist, solutions are everywhere.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

here is example why increasing flow is not possible.

320 g system
2.5 g sulfur
dt no3 <1ppm to max 2.5
dosing pump on @ ORP-206
dosing pump off @ ORP-199
orp peaks out at ~-245

in the being of the on cycle of reactor(orp@-206) effluent's no3 completely clear on Salifert's no3 tester. 20-30 minutes later, dosing pump on during this time, when dosing pump is about to turn off(orp back to -200) Salifert tester shows a slight pink in the effluent.

although adding more sulfur would help, i still will never get to your "impossible" flow rates. imo, the dt should turn over in about 18 days not every day.

There is enough sulphur to keep a steady level of 1ppm or below..
The ORP readings are very low, as far as I know -200mv is ideal for heterotrophe activity. What happens if ORP settings are increased gradually to - 100mv. Theoretically a sulfur denitrator should still work fine at - 50mv. What is the difference in flow? These are questions because I do not know the answers After each flow correction time is needed for the reactor to react on the changes. When big changes are made this can take a few days.
As the Level fluctuates between <1ppm and 2.5 ppm the daily production is difficult to calculate. Keeping the level steady at 2.5 ppm or at 1ppm would need a difference in flow of x 2.5 .
To calculate the daily production one has to know the nitrate level of the moment, the nitrate level a week later, and the same flow daily. As the level is not kept steady the calculation is difficult. I suspect that by dosing the flow is not the same every day and fluctuates also.
Is it not possible to regulate the dosingpump in a way it works constantly at a certain flowrate and keep ORP readings between working limits instead of on-off? For example to keep ORP between -50mv and -150mv? A litle bit more flow when -150mv is reached, a bit less when -50mv is reached? As I already said I have not the practical experience to claim this will work. The given ORP limits are just used as an example. You have more experience with ORP readings than i have to fill them in. Maybe someone els can help us out here?
I would remove the ORP and let the dosing pump work constantly at the flowrate needed to maintain a steady level of 1ppm or below. This is because I have not the necessary skills to use ORP We have an old Neptune Pro and the ORP readings we had where weird. Probably because we measured inside the reactor or the probes and reading was not accurate. Taking a sample of the effluent gives wrong readings because the sample takes up CO2 and Oxygen. Taking a sample of the effluent after the calcium-reactors gave us other readings.
Being lazy we left it for what it was because we could not see the benefit op using ORP.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Managing a sulphur denitrator

Managing a sulphur denitrator

Managing a sulphur denitrator is not that difficult if the correct line of thinking is followed.
Decreasing the flow brings in less nitrate, less oxygen and creates more space for de-nitration. Some people have the tendency to decrease the flow to create more space for anaerobic activity when the nitrate level increases. It is logic! What if not enough nitrate was entering the reactor to remove the increased production? Will it help increasing the flow? For to be able to increase the flow the reactor must be big enough to deplete the increased amount of oxygen!
How the reactor will be managed using ORP having to solve the same problem?

I follow a lot of threats on forums of different country's and a lot of small reactors are used successfully in the users point of view, some end up in perfume factory's. Most of these small reactors are used in systems with very low nitrate productions. So, they are big enough for the system. When the production of nitrate increases these reactors may become critical due to mismanagement. Increasing the flow is not possible because the reactor is to small or/and is ORP controlled; In a lot off cases the user will decrease the flow to create more anaerobic space which results in less nitrate entered for more space. The level will increase more! If one decides to decrease the flow once again this can result in sulphate reduction and worse, die off of the bioload within the reactor.
The question why a sulphur denitrator has a bad reputation is hereby answered. Which device used would work satisfactory when mismanaged?

 

[tmz]

Post 1603
So, the material you use as a basis for your opinions is unavailalbe for anyone to actually read in context. I tried to look it up per your suggestion that everyone read it,hoping it might be much more lucid than the way it's being represented.A search for it leads to references about an Iranian province.


Post 1606
All questions posed to me have been answered succintly at least once. My posts are there for folks to read there is no need or point to continue to misrepresent them. I don't want to continue to pollute this thread responding to gibberish but would like to see it move toward information and away form opinions cached in junk science, repetition and misrepresentations and convolutions without a logical basis.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Post 1603
So, the material you use as a basis for your opinions is unavailalbe for anyone to actually read in context. I tried to look it up per your suggestion that everyone read it,hoping it might be much more lucid than the way it's being represented.A search for it leads to references about an Iranian province.


Post 1606
All questions posed to me have been answered succintly at least once. My posts are there for folks to read there is no need or point to continue to misrepresent them. I don't want to continue to pollute this thread responding to gibberish but would like to see it move toward information and away form opinions cached in junk science, repetition and misrepresentations and convolutions without a logical basis.

I just ask to prove your point of view. If you can't prove it by answering a few simple questions maybe it is time to accept something is wrong in the line of thinking?

 

[CHSUB]

There is enough sulphur to keep a steady level of 1ppm or below..
The ORP readings are very low, as far as I know -200mv is ideal for heterotrophe activity. What happens if ORP settings are increased gradually to - 100mv.some no3 escapes the filter Theoretically a sulfur denitrator should still work fine at - 50mv. What is the difference in flow?flow is greater,but some no3 still in effluent These are questions because I do not know the answers After each flow correction time is needed for the reactor to react on the changes. When big changes are made this can take a few days.
As the Level fluctuates between <1ppm and 2.5 ppm the daily production is difficult to calculate. Keeping the level steady at 2.5 ppm or at 1ppm would need a difference in flow of x 2.5 .this is where you "miss the point" the ORP controller corrects the flow, only no3 free effluent can leave the reactor, flow is stopped until all no3 is exhausted
To calculate the daily production one has to know the nitrate level of the moment, the nitrate level a week later, and the same flow daily. As the level is not kept steady the calculation is difficult. I suspect that by dosing the flow is not the same every day and fluctuates also.
Is it not possible to regulate the dosingpump in a way it works constantly at a certain flowrate and keep ORP readings between working limits instead of on-off? For example to keep ORP between -50mv and -150mv? A litle bit more flow when -150mv is reached, a bit less when -50mv is reached? actually flow never stops 100%, even with the dosing pump off, a drip every second or two continuesAs I already said I have not the practical experience to claim this will work. The given ORP limits are just used as an example. You have more experience with ORP readings than i have to fill them in. Maybe someone els can help us out here?
I would remove the ORP and let the dosing pump work constantly at the flowrate needed to maintain a steady level of 1ppm or below. This is because I have not the necessary skills to use ORP We have an old Neptune Pro and the ORP readings we had where weird. Probably because we measured inside the reactor or the probes and reading was not accurate. Taking a sample of the effluent gives wrong readings because the sample takes up CO2 and Oxygen. Taking a sample of the effluent after the calcium-reactors gave us other readings.
Being lazy we left it for what it was because we could not see the benefit op using ORP.

"The redox potential is a parameter which can be measured electronically. The value is a
measurement for the equilibrium between reducing and oxydising reactions in the water. The redox
potential in the aquarium itself is kept at plus 200 - 400 mV (Millivolt). This high redox potential
indicates that oxydation reactions dominate over reduction reactions. Oxydation reactions are
biochemical reactions where a substance is oxydised, e. g. by oxygen. A negative redox potential
indicates the absence of oxygen and is lethal for most aquarium inhabitants. The biochemical
conditions in the Sulphur-Nitratereductor differ completely from those in the aquarium: Nitrate has
to be reduced to nitrogen gas. This is only possible if there is no oxygen dissolved in the water. The
redox potential is low or even negative. The ideal range is between - 50 and - 250 mV. If it
exceeds -50 mV, the denitrification reaction may stop at the nitrite stage!"

above from aqua medic, makers of Sulfur denitrators. Using ORP w/ sulfur only maximize its use. It does not change how the filter works. A dosing pump allows one to control the flow easily, nothing else. Ask someone that has used manifolds or dedicated pumps about controlling the flow: over time the flow slows. With a dosing pump this never happens. I have suggested turning the DT over every 12 to 18 days with a sulfur denitrator; this will provided a no3 free DT. Not a single manufacturer of any kind of denitrator recommends differently. Your flow rates will not provide the benefits you claim. i suspect your maintaining low no3 levels without using the reactor? have you tried disconnecting the reactor and seeing if no3 rises in the dt?

more from aqua medic:

"The flow rate through the Sulphur-Nitratereductor is very slow.
Control the flow rate: The flow rate through the filter has to be checked regularly. The optimum
is approx. 0.5 to 1 l/hr. This has to be re-adjusted from time to time."

 

[CHSUB]

Managing a sulphur denitrator is not that difficult if the correct line of thinking is followed. true
Decreasing the flow brings in less nitrate maybe , less oxygen and creates more space for de-nitration. Some people have the tendency to decrease the flow to create more space for anaerobic activity when the nitrate level increases people decrease flow only when effluent has no3, decreasing flow increases dwell time . It is logic! What if not enough nitrate was entering the reactor to remove the increased production? if effluent has no3 flow must be slowed or at least held steady Will it help increasing the flow? no, never For to be able to increase the flow the reactor must be big enough to deplete the increased amount of oxygen!yes, 1% is a good starting point
How the reactor will be managed using ORP having to solve the same problem? using orp only allows free no3 effluent to exit the reactor, my reactor has run for 18 months with no sulfur smells or black areas

I follow a lot of threats on forums of different country's and a lot of small reactors are used successfully in the users point of view, some end up in perfume factory's. impossible with recirculating/orp controlled reactors Most of these small reactors are used in systems with very low nitrate productions. So, they are big enough for the system. When the production of nitrate increases these reactors may become critical due to mismanagement. true Increasing the flow is not possible because the reactor is to small true or/and is ORP controlled false, the reactor slows to increase dwell time, but never fails ; In a lot off cases the user will decrease the flow to create more anaerobic space which results in less nitrate entered for more space. The level will increase more! If one decides to decrease the flow once again this can result in sulphate reduction and worse, die off of the bioload within the reactor. false, orp control never reduces no3 input only flow input
The question why a sulphur denitrator has a bad reputation is hereby answered. bad reputation because of misinformation and expectations that are impossible to fulfill Which device used would work satisfactory when mismanaged? none, however user may not know device is not working properly; orp controller removes the chance for mismanagement by correcting flow for varible no3 input levels and only allowing no3 free effluent

 

[tmz]

I just ask to prove your point of view. If you can't prove it by answering a few simple questions maybe it is time to accept something is wrong in the line of thinking?

Stop. Further discussion with you is pointless. The questions have all been answered. I won't answer them or other silly argumentative questions based on your convoluted opinions again. The thread has suffered enough from it.

 

[tmz]

as far as I know -200mv is ideal for heterotrophe activity.

junk ;sufur bacteria are not heterotrope(sic) this has been discussed at length before.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

as far as I know -200mv is ideal for heterotrophe activity.

junk ;sufur bacteria are not heterotrope(sic) this has been discussed at length before.

That is what I ment! - 200 mv is to low!! It is ideal for heterotrophs. There is no need for ORP being so low.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Stop. Further discussion with you is pointless. The questions have all been answered. I won't answer them or other silly argumentative questions based on your convoluted opinions again. The thread has suffered enough from it.

Still no answers!! Facts not opinions!
You deny the most elemental basic factor for managing a sulfur denitrator just because you don't want accept that your line of thinking may not be correct. That the advice you gave to people may be wrong or not correct does not concern you at all? Even when basic mathematical prove is given you stay in denial of the facts. Facts are not opinions!
Being impolite and offensive will not help an do not change things.
Nobody has to follow what I have been posting. Any size off sulphur reactor is able to reduce nitrate. One thus not need maths to prove that!
But only a reactor that is big enough will be able to close the nitrogen cycle and keep the desired nitrate level.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

"The redox potential is a parameter which can be measured electronically. The value is a
measurement for the equilibrium between reducing and oxydising reactions in the water. The redox
potential in the aquarium itself is kept at plus 200 - 400 mV (Millivolt). This high redox potential
indicates that oxydation reactions dominate over reduction reactions. Oxydation reactions are
biochemical reactions where a substance is oxydised, e. g. by oxygen. A negative redox potential
indicates the absence of oxygen and is lethal for most aquarium inhabitants. The biochemical
conditions in the Sulphur-Nitratereductor differ completely from those in the aquarium: Nitrate has
to be reduced to nitrogen gas. This is only possible if there is no oxygen dissolved in the water. The
redox potential is low or even negative. The ideal range is between - 50 and - 250 mV. If it
exceeds -50 mV, the denitrification reaction may stop at the nitrite stage!"

above from aqua medic, makers of Sulfur denitrators. Using ORP w/ sulfur only maximize its use. It does not change how the filter works. A dosing pump allows one to control the flow easily, nothing else. Ask someone that has used manifolds or dedicated pumps about controlling the flow: over time the flow slows. With a dosing pump this never happens. I have suggested turning the DT over every 12 to 18 days with a sulfur denitrator; this will provided a no3 free DT. Not a single manufacturer of any kind of denitrator recommends differently. Your flow rates will not provide the benefits you claim. i suspect your maintaining low no3 levels without using the reactor? have you tried disconnecting the reactor and seeing if no3 rises in the dt?

more from aqua medic:

"The flow rate through the Sulphur-Nitratereductor is very slow.
Control the flow rate: The flow rate through the filter has to be checked regularly. The optimum
is approx. 0.5 to 1 l/hr. This has to be re-adjusted from time to time."

0.5 or 1 Litr/h makes a big difference ( double flow),. Although, for a 2 gal reactor this is very little. Less than 0.1lit/ liter sulphur. A flow of 2l/litre sulphur is a normal flow. I am amazed and happy the same time because you have a lot of anaerobic space for very little nitrate to remove and the reactor works fine.
The guidelines of aqua medic probably are based on a carbon reactor and it has proven to work fine to reduce nitrate. Controlling the level and keep the level steady is something else. A BADESS is able to close the nitrogen cycle at a steady low level at high nitrate production.
I can not go in discussion abouth ORP use. I have not the necessary experience; Your system is removing a small amount of nitrate daily. We need a flow of the total system volume in 2 days to keep the level steady. But all info is welcome to learn how to manage a reactor with ORP.
I have read a few papers concerning the use of ORP in drinking- and wastewater plants. Test results where: nitrification +100 tot + 350mv denitrification + 50 tot- 50 mv Biological phosfhorus release - 100 to -225mv (Acid formation or fermentation occurs when
the ORP is between -100 and -225 mV.) Biological phosfhorus removal +25 to +250 mv sulfide formation -50 to -250mv (sulfide serves
as a sulfur nutrient for facultative anaerobic and anaerobic bacteria) Methane production -175 to - 400 mv
I would think that a reading between -50 and -150 is ok for autotrophe denitrification. Maybe -50 to -100 to avoid phosphorus release.

To start with the basics: A sufur reactor is used with ORP. to deplete a high nitrate level. let us say from 40ppm to 1ppm. The reactor works fine but at 20 ppm the level thus not decent any more. As I want a level of 1ppm how will I manage this using ORP?

Do you have an idea of the difference in flow at -50mv and at - 250 mv?

 

[tmz]

1618 post.


Still attacking with opinions about me personally. Honestly, I do care about the quality of the information and I'm tired of correcting the junk presented; I just don't care what you think . I've never seen so much mistated science about nothing in the form of opinions presented as fact.