do feather duster worms spawn?

[sculptthis]

Well it took two hours to get the damsel out of my tank. I had to take out all of the rock and call the lfs and beg them to stay open untill I got there. I finally won. The veretid were going wild when I got home. I even found one that is 1/4 inch wide. All my other fish were calm during this. I think they knew it was time for her to go. I bought a copperband butterfly to help with the vermetid and a variety of snails. I have a long night ahead of me but would love for you to look at pics of my tank when the dust settles. I really appreciate all of your help. I don't know what I would do without RC-

 

[socalreefer73]

Just be sure the butterfly will accept prepared foods after it eats all the vermitids so it doesn't starve and perish... I want to remember the butterfly family as being picky eaters...

 

[sculptthis]

The butterfly was in the lsf for about six weeks and eating very well on the mysis shrimp. My tank looked beautiful this morning and everyone looks happy. I am thinking about ordering the garf. I want my sand to stay white though. Does the garf give a rock look? I am concerned that there may not be enough orginisms on the LR for the butterfly and dragonet to stay fufilled long term even with the shrimp feedings.

 

[socalreefer73]

You will only need about a pound and that should be about 2-3 cups of the stuff. What I got was an interesting gravel mixture. After I acclimated it for temp and slowly added some of my water to the grunge over about an hour or two, I added the grunge behind/in my rockwork because it is definitely not white.

If the butterfly is eating mysis, then it should be fine, as long as it gets enough food when you feed your tank. The dragonet may need to be fed without competition in a 'diner' like illustrated on melevesreef.com.

Adding another fish is going to raise your nitrates, btw. Which was one of your original problems? The additional food you will be adding for it will eventually end up as nitrate. You should have waited till you got your nitrates to zero before adding more livestock, if you're shooting for a reef tank, which may have included a purchase of more LR. How many lbs of LR do you have in your tank?

Those snails that you bought the butterfly for are actually good for your tank, by the way. They help catch small pieces of detritus and food that your fish can't/won't eat due to the particle size.

Thought you were gonna post a pic of your tank last night?

 

[reefshadow]

I increased the calcium by adding kalk.

Kalk alone will not appreciably increase the amount of calcium in your system, rather it will help maintain levels of ca. and alk. You need to use a buffer and something to increase the calcium, and then you can use kalkwasser to help maintain them.

Not trying to be nitpicky, I just wouldn't want you to nuke your system trying to use kalk to raise the levels.

Sounds like you have a nice system going.

I have a ton of vermitids too, they are harmless but kind of pesky with all the sliming they do.

 

[sculptthis]

Sorry to not have posted pics.. everytime I try to make my camera talk to my computer my computer locks up. My current test results are as follows-
ph 8.0
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20
calcium 430
kh 10.9
alk 3.89
I added the copperband butterfly becuase the snails looked out of control to me. I had lots of cobwet stuff floating everywhere and notice the living on almost every rock. I even found on in a cave that was 1/4 inch wide. Everything has been going well except for one new thing for me. I had a piece of zoo coral fall to the sand and when I fished it out with a net I oncovered black sand just under the surface. This is only in about a 3 inch diameter of sand in the tank. I removed it and added some water to it. The ammonia test high. Is this just a grave of a fish that would have died greater than a month ago? The butterfly is eating both mysis and picking off rocks. The dragonet is grazing contsintly off rocks. Won't eat the mysis but I am going to try the smal jar diner method. I am not sure how many pounds of rock I have. I have a wall going the length of my tank built up to cover half of the vertical space. It is very unusual rock. It ranges in coler from tan to dark pink. It has lots of shape and branches and caves. Small hard dark pick coral looking things growing very slowly in areas, tons of vermetis, one piece has large and small clam shaped areas that recently opened revieling an empty sphere.

Your not nit picky, just more experienced. I really appreciate all of your input!!! One more question-
I am not ready to convert to a refugium yet but was wondering if removing 1/3 of my bioballs from the bottom of my sump amd replacing it with LR would help at all. Any ideas to upgrade with simple means the system I have in place?? Thank you. I look forward to your reply.

 

[socalreefer73]

The black areas in the sand sounds like you have the makings for a DSB crash, but I'm not an expert in DSB problems, so don't be alarmed. Take my info with a grain of salk on that one. Reef shadow can probably give you more accurate info on that...

It's not a grave, but areas where the sand is rotting and should be creating a rotten egg smell. Did you notice that when you took the sample out? I'm not sure how to correct that, but I do know that you shouldn't stir up the sand all at once and release that stuff. You might want to consider some burrowing critters to keep the sand stirred up a little. I think some wrasses do it, but more importantly nassarius snails do (they chill just under the sand and come out like an army when the tank is fed -- cool), chitons do (will clean the glass under the sand), as well as sand sifting star fish (one star should suffice in your sized tank - they need big tanks). I say more importantly on the last three because they are janitorial critters. Cucumbers do too, but they can release the contents of their stomachs when provoked and that has bad consequences for the quality of water in a closed sytem like our tanks.

3.89 ALK? What test did you use to get that accuracy? I usu the drip test, which only gives me accuracy to about .5 meq/L.

It sounds like you have a very good amount of LR in your tank. I'm not sure if purchasing more would be as efficient as removing 1/3 of the bioballs at a time over the next few weeks and saving your money for that refugium setup you're looking towards. Putting cured LR in the sump can only help, but you'll also need to throw a few janitors in with it... Snails and hermits LOVE new LR.

 

[socalreefer73]

p.s. I like to keep my alk/calc at 4.5meq/L and 450ppm. I personally would push my Alk up, but you're in acceptable ranges with those values.

I know my tank looks like a newb tank, but like I said, I got all this stuff from a friend's 30g tank that crashed a few months ago due to a siphon prob when he was out of the country (his siphon break holes were blocked and pump failed from fuge). I'm moving into a new place in about a month so I'm not working on stocking the tank until then.

Last week:

 

[sculptthis]

your tank looks awsome for what you've got. I am looking into the DSB. I have 6 nassarius snails that I just added to the tank last sunday. They are the first addition that attracted puff. at the lfs they came right out when food was added. When I added them to my tank puff's eyes changed color and his entire deposition changed. He rotated between attacking 4 at a time. By the time they got into the sand they had lost limbs a bits of shell. I did not so them for two days at all including feedings so I though puff had a prime dinner. Last night I was investigating my night time conditions and could find all 6 snails. in the very early am my entire sand bed is bumpy from there work. They must be smart to not show themselves during the light. Should I get more? Should I get the starfish today? My lfs has one semi large black star bwith spicky things all over its legs and one very large (12 inches or so) red star fish thats eats waste. I was very careful when I uncovered the black sand to not mixed it with the tank water untill I tested it by gently scooping it out. Rotten egg smell? to say the least. The only thing I have smelled that was worse is a human decomp.
Whats the best wasy to raise alk?
Is my current 20 gallon sump big enough for a refugium or should I look bigger? I have a ton of room in may tank stand so probably should go as big as possible. Well that's enough questions from me for now......... I really appreciate this forum. I spend a ton of time with my tank and don't have anyone to dicuss what I am doing with it except the lfs and I really take there info with a grain of sand..

 

[socalreefer73]

Thanks... I miss my old tank though (see avatar).

As for the way you added your snails to the tank; it sounds like you just dumped them out of the bag to fall through the water column? As you know now, that's not the best idea when you have predators... : P Especially with shrimp, you should carry them down onto the rockwork so as not to tempt the fish.

I personally wouldn't go DSB from what I've read about them... I'm planning on going 2-3". I'm only bare bottom now because it's pointless for me to add sand until I move.

I think you're probably good with the nass snails, but I don't think it would hurt to add a few more.

A sand sifter star isn't a decorator star. They look pretty much exactly like sand. No descriptive color at all. Those other stars are not really reef safe, from what I thought I knew, but in looking up the stars again, they don't seem that bad. I want to say I remember them eating on everything in the tank including corals. Here is what I was specifically talking about:

White Sand Star

Sand Sifting Sea Star

Also, they are considered the 'Canaries' of the aquarium. In other words, when something goes awry, they are the first to perish. (pulsing zenia is also considered a tank 'canary')

I like to use a two part calcium/Alk suppliment. One is to boost Alk, the other is to boost Ca. The beauty with this system is that once you get your levels set (say 4.5meq/L and 450ppm Ca), you only have to check your Alk and add equal amounts of each. I use B-ionic... You can also raise it with baking soda, but you would have to look up the info on how much to use online somewhere.

I'm not sure what the going 'standard' refugium size is as a function of tank size, but I'm sure Melev's site can help you with that. I think the general consensus is to use as big as you can fit under your stand, while still being able to maintain your system (room to work on pipes/fittings/pumps, etc.)

HTH
-M

 

[sculptthis]

I did not just dump the snails in. I placed them right side up on the bottom of the sand. I didn't expect this reaction by my puffer as I have other snails and crabs crawling around and he doesn't even look at them. I have a solution of sodium bicarbonate that I can add for alk.

The starfish I was trying to decribe are the Brittle Starfish and the Red serpent starfish. I was considering these becuase they both are supposed to consume waste (puffer is a messy eater and I thoucht this would help) and they are both supposed to be reef safe.

I am extremly upset right now. I did research on the dsb crash and this is probably due to old tank syndrome. I negelted my tank for a few months. I then did a 30 percent water change and some general cleaning. I feel horrible and stupid right now becuase my next step was to add the 10 black dogface puffer. I feel that due to the hours I spend each and everyday on my aquarium is the only reason why I have maintained any stability. From what I have just learned about OTS I am probaly right on the verge of an instint crash. I have put very sensitive fish in my tank and am very attached to them. So....Tears are fallin.............

I need to address the sand problem before anything else.
PLease critique my plan-
add 6 more sand diggers (to the sand BEHIND the rocks)
add red serpent star
add sand sifting star
order cleanup crew and garf
do 10 percent h2o change every few days
buy ro/di unit for my water

Please help me save my pets!!

 

[socalreefer73]

Slow down there Turbo... Nothing good happens overnight in this tank. Take a step back, breathe, and read read read... read that book I suggested. It's very good. Also, don't take anecdotal information as the golden standard, take it with a grain of salt. Trust info based strongly by scientific method. i.e. stuff you find in good marine references... There may actually be a calamity of errors that lead to the so-called DSB crash, besides a few months of poor husbandry. When it's not setup as an actual experiment, you can't say for certain. Look up a jaubert plenum, for instance... It is very similar to a DSB with the kind of areas you found in your DSB... You just don't want to release that stuff in a big plum into your water column all at once.

You need to decide which school of salt water tank you're going to have. FOWLR or REEF. FOWLR can have nitrates, I'm not sure the upper limit, but I think you want to be near 40ppm at the high end. If you're going reef, you want no nitrates at all... That means not adding any fish until you can get your nitrates down. With the addition of another puffer, esp a 10" (which may be too large for your tank, btw) You're REALLY heading in the FOWLR direction and won't be able to provide the water quality that reef critters/corals require.

I've never had a puffer so I don't know their feeding requirements, but I know some fish are considered 'dirty' like the groupers (if memory serves me right) because they require a lot of food. Maybe puffers fall into this catagory?

Ultimately, the more food you have to add daily, the more your biology has to convert to ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and then if the denitrifying capacity is right -- convert all of that nitrate to nitrogen gas. I think I'm sounding like a broken record on that, but you really shouldn't plan on adding anything to your tank -- if you're going reef -- until your nitrates have dropped to zero.

Surprisingly enough, the best practice is to let it do it's thing, while practicing the best husbandry you can (keeping your levels and feedings as stable as you can). You may introduce a soap or oil or cleaning product to your tank if you have your hand in it every five minutes... Also, don't add dry suppliments directly to the tank. I learned that the hard way.. well, a bubble tentacle anemone of mine did. It freaked, deflated and threw up when some of the crystals of an alk suppliment landed on it. It lived, but I thought I was going to have a heart attack...

As for your dsb, you may have just found a localized patch of that stuff. Getting the sand crew in order should clean that up.

I'd get:

The nass. snails.

A brittle/serpent star -- be prepared, one it finds it's spot, I hear you'll only see a legg now and again, if that (my garf grunge included very very tiny blue bodied brittle stars with white legs).

A sand sifting star

Garf Grunge

I don't know what you mean by ordering a cleanup crew. Those websites tend to sell you WAY more than you need. I have 3 snails and 3 hermits in my twenty. I could use more snails only for the fact that they can't keep up with keeping the glass as much as I'd like. When I get to my new place, I'm going to get a money cowrie or two (check out the tiger cowry -- cool). Chitons are cool too, but I've never seen one in the pet store... I think you get those mostly as hitch-hickers on live rock...

the conscienscious marine aquarist

RO/DI unit My next one I'm going to go with the Kent Marine Hi-S, if my municipal water supply dictates it... Melev sells a cheap one that I used in the past and it took my TDS from 200+ to like 3...

Slow.. Slow.. Slow down on your water changes... Do less frequently with greater volume... Small changes frequently don't dilute as much as larger changes less frequently. I was trying to find the article on that with data points on advanced aquarist.com, but after 15 minutes I gave up...

You don't have any ammonia or nitrite and that would be the only reason to do frequent changes -- and then they would be larger changes than 10%. I used to do about a 10-20% once a month. Some people get away with never doing water changes... Some people have skimmerless setups... (makes you think, how necessary are they, really?)

The best thing you can do is to let the natural processes come back naturally, not that I think they've gone anywhere. Just make sure your skimmer is wokring properly and cleaned every few days (gunk forms inside the top of the foam riser tube). You want to be catching about a cup of funk every few days or a week. The new sand cleanup crew should get that back in order....

As long as everyone looks happy, you're doing great, right?

 

[sculptthis]

Thank you.......... I do need to slow down. I am also very greatful to my co-worker for not letting take feric iron from work to try to help things. I will do as you suggested but may have one more idea- Should I and something to increase water flow or oxegen? another maxi jet/etc?

 

[sculptthis]

Well things are much calmer now. I went to the lfs and the owner was also a great help to me and gave me great discounts. I purchased 6 sand digging snails, one green bristle star with legs that are 7 inches long and a four inch wide white sand star. He also told me once a week to use a knife and draw straight lines throu the sand on 1/2 of the tank. I order a ro/di system. He also had a refugium set up that used to be in one of his 72 gallon bow front, which is what I have. For $350 he will give me that stocked +installation as my tank has to be removed from the stand. So hopefully that set up will be in my near future. I will try to get my picks online agian tonight. I appreciate all of the help. I think my little world will make it thru just fine...Especially since I was kept in line!! I also purchased books-Vol 1 and 2 of The Reef Aquarium by Delbeek and Sprung

 

[socalreefer73]

I think volume one is like ten years old.. Take anything in any book that's more than a year old with a grain of salt. 10 years, heck, even two years, is a LONG time in this hobby in the way of technological advances. I beleive in vol. one they talk about making your own iodine and strontium suppliments... Something that is unheard of today.

Tell your buddy at work that I tahnk him as well as your tank thanks you. You're not a biochemist right? so why would you think that would help?

You do want to check to make sure you have about 10-15x your gallonage in gallons per hour flow rate. Some people go as high as 20, but you can have problems kicking up sand with that much flow.

Find out how much your the return pump outputs in GPH for the height difference from the top of the water in your sum to the top of the water in your tank. That's you r base head pressure. Then add head pressures for and 90 degree angles and such. I think there is a calculator somewhere on this site to help. Then add any gph per powerhead in your tank now. (you should clean the impellers a couple of times a year) That will tell you how much you have.

Also, make sure one is pointed toward the surface so that it agitates the surface water. This will spread teh film that forms on the water an provide a fresh interface with the water and air... Just enough to create ripples. You don't want the water to slosh about -- very messy over time.

-M

 

[socalreefer73]

Bored at work...

These are like the nitrate concentration over time graphs I was trying to find on advancedaquarist.com...