do we need to run skimmers?

[Joel A]

Ok, so there's this one guy on my local reef form, and he always tells new hobbyists to either not buy skimmers, or to buy some cheap skimmer because they are totally unnecessary, and they do next to nothing in a reef tank. He backs up these claims with random "studies" that he finds on the internet that show skimmers don't do anything.

His thoughts are that a refugium and other similar ideas are far better than a skimmer. He says that good water changes are all you need. While i agree that water changes are good husbandry, and a refugium can be useful in certain situations, i do not believe an average hobbyist with a tank under 20,000 gallons can run a successful SPS tank without a skimmer..

So i tell him this, and he says "prove it". So how do i prove this guy wrong... it's really bothering me... he's constantly saying this crap.... he says "all skimmers are is good marketing and foolish consumers". I ask him why every single nice SPS tank i've seen to date has a skimmer, and a damn good one at that... he doesn't respond.

What do you guys think?

 

[pisces4u]

There are many SPS tanks out there without skimmers and if you look back far enough you will find the threads.

The folks at Ecosystems run a large tank with SPS and no skimmer as well to show the benefit of their Miracle Mud.

The keys here would be not overstocking or overfeeding and running a huge amount of macro algae to keep up with nutrients.

 

[Joel A]

There are many SPS tanks out there without skimmers and if you look back far enough you will find the threads.

The folks at Ecosystems run a large tank with SPS and no skimmer as well to show the benefit of their Miracle Mud.

The keys here would be not overstocking or overfeeding and running a huge amount of macro algae to keep up with nutrients.

Many? I'm not sure i've ever seen a tank that wasn't extremely large running without a skimmer that i was impressed with. What was the last TOTM that had beautiful SPS and didn't run a skimmer?

Again-- I'm not arguing that it can't be done... hell if you have a huge water volume, tiny bio-load, tons of liverock and macro algae, tons of water flow, and do frequent large water changes.. then yeah.. that would probably work. But is that at all practical for any average hobbyist?

 

[LUVSPS]

I think he is full of boloney! How could he think that a piece of equipment that removes excess waste/fish poo and oxygenates the water is a bad thing? Weird, weird, weird. If someones going to do heavy water changes in place of a skimmer, that person would pay for the skimmer in salt in a short amount of time. Just buy the skimmer.

I defy that guy to show us a SPS TOTM worthy tank that doesn't run a skimmer. Granted, LPS and softies need less "clean" water but is this what he is talking about? Or is he saying that a protein skimmer is unnecessary on ALL tanks? There is no way on earth someone could talk me into taking my skimmer offline after seeing the amount of gunk it pulls out of the water column. FYI, it's a Warner Marine S200. Cost me $400. Best investment I've made on my tank. Hands down!. Give the guy a link to this thread.

 

[mpoletti]

There are some interesting facts out there on skimmer effieciency and I have also seen some pretty nice tanks with little to no skimming.

My take on this and its a personal take, is that skimmers make things easier. Not only do they aid with TOC removal, they also help in the oxygenation of the water.

Can a tank run successful without one; sure. Would I do it, no

 

[obiwanthegoby]

The arguement is moot. All systems need a form of nutrient export. You can do it through massive weekly water changes, through a refugium, turf scrubbers, however but in some way shape or form you have to export the accumulated wastes in your system. Skimmers do their job,... many studys such as one done, i believe by diane riddle with advanced aquarists, (ill look for the link) show that skimmers export about 30% of accumulated wastes. So if you want to make up for that 30 % with another technique so be it, but your just doing the job of the skimmer another way.....

thats my two cents... and my 1500 was spent on a Reeflo 250 prokit...

Obi

 

[SpankythePyro]

Ah yea he is correct because none of the state/national aquariums run skimmers at all :hmm3:

 

[pisces4u]

There are some interesting facts out there on skimmer effieciency and I have also seen some pretty nice tanks with little to no skimming.

My take on this and its a personal take, is that skimmers make things easier. Not only do they aid with TOC removal, they also help in the oxygenation of the water.

Can a tank run successful without one; sure. Would I do it, no

I like this point and Obi's. Yes, SPS tanks can be run without skimmers. However, as reefing is a hobby to most and not a full time comittment, anything we can do to make things "easier" and more stable help.

 

[Joel A]

Ah yea he is correct because none of the state/national aquariums run skimmers at all :hmm3:

lol...

i searched through all of the RC TOTM's from 2005 to current... the only one i found not using a skimmer was a desktop 8 gallon tank from april 2007... i didn't see any SPS in there...

 

[Joel A]

well here's the thing.. .you guys say that a tank can be kept without a skimmer, you just have to find another way to export the nutrients... this is correct, i'm not arguing with that... but you can also keep up calcium and alkalinity by simply performing water changes, so why would anyone ever use a calcium reactor, or dose two part, or kalkwasser? You can move an adequate amount of water with a turkey baster, hell you could even blow through a straw into your tank and move the water, so why would anyone ever use powerheads?

 

[chrisqueenz]

the arguement is moot. All systems need a form of nutrient export. You can do it through massive weekly water changes, through a refugium, turf scrubbers, however but in some way shape or form you have to export the accumulated wastes in your system. Skimmers do their job,... Many studys such as one done, i believe by diane riddle with advanced aquarists, (ill look for the link) show that skimmers export about 30% of accumulated wastes. So if you want to make up for that 30 % with another technique so be it, but your just doing the job of the skimmer another way.....

Thats my two cents... And my 1500 was spent on a reeflo 250 prokit...

obi

x1

 

[obiwanthegoby]

the reason the people in this grand earth use all things... they are designed to make life easier... why do we use word processors instead of hand writing everything, why do drive automobiles to work 30 miles away instead of walking,... it saves money, time or makes things easier...simple answer.

If you wanna stand in front of your tank with a straw, a mirror, and a turkey baster let me know how it turns out for you!

 

[Joel A]

the reason the people in this grand earth use all things... they are designed to make life easier... why do we use word processors instead of hand writing everything, why do drive automobiles to work 30 miles away instead of walking,... it saves money, time or makes things easier...simple answer.

If you wanna stand in front of your tank with a straw, a mirror, and a turkey baster let me know how it turns out for you!

well said, i hope you don't mind but i quoted you in the thread in which i was having the dispute with this guy.

 

[Joel A]

If someones going to do heavy water changes in place of a skimmer, that person would pay for the skimmer in salt in a short amount of time. Just buy the skimmer.

I said this too him, and he responded with the amount of money i spend on salt is the same amount of money you spend monthly to power your "bubblemango" . I said to him my skimmer pump uses 35 watts, and costs under 3 dollars a month to run....

 

[mpoletti]

Joel, What does his tank look like?

 

[kawicivic]

instead of trying to argue with the guy... take the higher road. When he advises noobies to not use a skimmer, kindly point out that this hobby has many rights and wrongs and countless ways to fail and succeed. Encourage them to utilize research and seek the opinions of multiple people before doing anything. I've got a biocube 10 feet away from me that I haven't done anything except for top off on it for like 6+ mos and its still got coral surviving... however I would never recommend that to someone else. I also have a tank that was neglected for months that I got to rebound in about 2 weeks by fixing the skimmer and doing frequent water changes. Neither one of these situations are recommendations for the average hobbyist as they are both extremes of the spectrum of care (very little to very high). Do your best to promote the hobby and the guy in question will earn the respect... or lack of respect... he deserves.

 

[Joel A]

Joel, What does his tank look like?

It's not an algae infested POS tank, but it's not jaw-dropping either.... there are many nicer tanks out there than what he has, and all of those nicer tanks run skimmers.. coincidence? I think not... ?

Here's a picture that he posted as proof that skimmers don't do anything...

 

[obiwanthegoby]

this debate could go on for years and still never have a 100% correct answer. Everyone chooses their own solution. Skimmer efficiency can be done tank size versus electricity consumption, electricity consumption vs TOC removal in a bazillion other ways. What my skimmer does for my tank is unthinkable using water changes. It costs me approx. 5 bucks a month to run. If you add in the life cost of the skimmer assuming it can be spread only on the life of the pump which is warrantied for 5 years... your looking at 30 a month. (in reality the skimmer it self will last forever if taken care of and the pumps will last a lot longer than 5 yrs if maintained, but we are assuming things here, (in my opinion a much too conswrvative approach but none the less.) My water changes (20% a month are just what is recommended) cost me about 33 dollars not including the 120 gallons or so used to make the 45 gallons of water in the RO/DI...oh wait we would need to factor in filter life here..... say I go through .33 of a set of filter and Di/resin per month making water change water... which would add 8.25 to the bill. So we are at 41.25 plus water for water changes at 20%... double or triple that for a 40 or 60% change per month (which is still small in some peoples books). Things dont campare.

On another hand I have to say this... a skimmer operates 24/7 pulling waste and creating a stable evironment. try subjecting things to a 60% water change per week and tell me things stay stable... Unless you PERFECTLY match parameters during changes this could be an issue as well..... you can pick at every little thing imaginable with this hobby and there are 5 bazillion ways times 1000 to do things.... pick what works for you and go with it. Just remember there are more efficient ways to do things.....

 

[Joel A]

instead of trying to argue with the guy... take the higher road. When he advises noobies to not use a skimmer, kindly point out that this hobby has many rights and wrongs and countless ways to fail and succeed. Encourage them to utilize research and seek the opinions of multiple people before doing anything. I've got a biocube 10 feet away from me that I haven't done anything except for top off on it for like 6+ mos and its still got coral surviving... however I would never recommend that to someone else. I also have a tank that was neglected for months that I got to rebound in about 2 weeks by fixing the skimmer and doing frequent water changes. Neither one of these situations are recommendations for the average hobbyist as they are both extremes of the spectrum of care (very little to very high). Do your best to promote the hobby and the guy in question will earn the respect... or lack of respect... he deserves.

Yeah, i wish i had the discipline and the patience to do such a thing... lol. I've tried that, but i always end up getting pulled into the argument... i just get worked up easily over little stuff like this as i'm sure you guys can tell...

 

[Joel A]

see this is why it aggravates me... now another guy on my local forums (newer guy to the hobby) just started another thread.... He was going to upgrade his skimmer to a bubbleking because he had read that they were the best... now after reading the thread that me and this other guy were bickering in, he's asking if it makes sense, because so and so's study showed that no skimmer is really any better than the other.... I told him to set up a seaclone, and a bubbleking so he could judge which skimmer works better...

Now am i saying everyone needs a BK or that a BK is really all that much better than your average skimmer? No, I'm not... i have an octopus NW-200, that i've modded a bit, and it works great... if i bought a bubble king would i get more skimmate? Probably a little bit, but the skimmer is also a huge amount more money... so why would i buy it? The material on my reef octopus is cheap, the pump has restart issues every time the power goes out, the recirculation mod leaks, the air intake is noisy as hell, and the pump vibrates like crazy... so that's why i'd buy a bubble king, not because i think it's going to make a huge improvement in water quality...