Does this look like lymphocystis?

Untamed12

New member
Please ignore the slash on the side of this fish. That has healed nicely and is another story completely...

I'm wondering what people might be able to tell me about the white spots on his body and fins? Is that lymphocystis?

I don't think this is ich..the spots are really large and not all the same shape. Besides, I have other fish in the tank with ich and I believe it looks very different.

I would say he behaves normally. Eating well. Not scratching. He has looked like this for maybe 3 weeks at this point.

Some sort of fungus, maybe?

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jmaneyapanda

Commencing hatred
crypto. Definitely not lympho. Some fish get real mucousy when they get crypto (ich). But that is what you have. Sorry. Good news is that its easy to treat.
 

JHemdal

New member
I would disagree with the blanket diagnosis of Cryptocaryon in the previous two posts based on what I can see in the photo.

Some of the spots are raised too far and are of too many different sizes and shapes to be Cryptocaryon. Besides, a fish with that many trophonts on its body would have a seriously depressed demeanor, and a lot more mucus. Around the caudal fin, some of the spots do resemble Cryptocaryon, but further up on the body they look like Lymphocystis.

I have seen massive Lymphocystis infections before, never quite this bad, but close. It has something to do with the collapse of the fish's immune system and subsequent explosion of gigantisized cells.

However, you wrote: "Besides, I have other fish in the tank with ich" - if this is true, then this tang ALSO has Cryptocaryon (due to the immune system problem) - but they still may not be what is causing all of those spots.

Here is a trick: assuming that the fish is still feeding - you have time for this before it dies, take another photograph from the same angle 24 to 36 hours later. Any large spots that are still in the same location are NOT Cryptocaryon, but are Lymphocystis. If the spots have mostly changed locations, then it is likely Cryptocaryon.

Try taking a photograph at right angles to the fish's body. Like I said, it looks like Lymphocystis from the photograph, but if you used a flash, and took the picture at an angle, the shadows behind the spots may be articifically creating greater depth to them, causing me to see Lympho.

Bottom line NOBODY can positively ID this from that photograph. It is possible that it is Cryptocaryon and Lymphocysitis together. The best way to clear this up would be to take a skin scrape and examine it under a microscope.

Jay
 
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jmaneyapanda

Commencing hatred
Here is why I disagree with Jay. I have seen, particularly in Acanthurus genus tangs a reaction very similar to this. A fellow reefer in my reef club had the same concern, and this "problem" progressed from fish to fish, infect all with the same ailments, and eventually causing the demise of all his fish in his tank. Here are some of his pics. You will see, his symptoms appear EXACTLY as yours. he also did contact Delbeek and Carlson, who also confirmed it to be crypto.

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JHemdal

New member
Lots more mucus on the top of that PBT, look at the diffuse cloudiness on the pectoral fins on the YT.

Besides, I seriously doubt that either Bruce or Charles would have given a definitive diagnosis based on photographs - they both know better. Did they look at a biopsy? Did you notice that all I did was disagree with YOUR definitive diagnosis? I didn't say it wasn't Cryptocaryon, only that it isn't definately that, and that it may well be two disease processes at one time - something that most armchair fish doctors don't recognize as a possibility.

A skin scrape is needed, simple as that. More history on the fish and a second photograph taken perpendicular to the fish would also help.


Jay
 

jmaneyapanda

Commencing hatred
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14129769#post14129769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Lots more mucus on the top of that PBT, look at the diffuse cloudiness on the pectoral fins on the YT.

Besides, I seriously doubt that either Bruce or Charles would have given a definitive diagnosis based on photographs - they both know better. Did they look at a biopsy? Did you notice that all I did was disagree with YOUR definitive diagnosis? I didn't say it wasn't Cryptocaryon, only that it isn't definately that, and that it may well be two disease processes at one time - something that most armchair fish doctors don't recognize as a possibility.

A skin scrape is needed, simple as that. More history on the fish and a second photograph taken perpendicular to the fish would also help.


Jay

Here we are again Jay, getting all defensive because I disagree with you. FWIW, I apologize, I did not give you the entire details. The pictures were taken at differnet dates, and stages. The first one was about 4 days prior to the second two. And, FWIW, both Charles and Bruce did say it looked exactly like crypto. Charles even posted in the thread, and asked this aquarist to use his photos in literature he was preparing on the topic. But, that is really unimportant to this issue.

I disgaree that it is lympho at all. I am assuming that the cse in question, and the case I am familiar with are the same, as the symptoms and genera are the same. But, in the case I am speaking of, the spots popped up in days after adding a new fish, where the cysts were VERY enlarged on the Acanthurus sp. tang, and then sloughed in a mucosal discharge. Then reappeared, and the cycle repeated until the fish dies. The Zebrasoma sp, Naso sp, and Amphiprion sp. did not have as severe a mucosal discahrge, but all contracted the larger sized cysts. As I have mentioned, I believe the Acanthurus species tangs produced a much heavy slime coat in response to the cysts.

You can feel free to agree or disagree, or defend your posts. I am merely trying to help the OP.
 

SDguy

Fish heads unite!
Premium Member
I've never seen lympho like that :-/ Larger white/grey "growths" on the edges of fins/gills, even mouths?...sure. But spots that look like ich all over? Nope.
 

snorvich

Team RC member
Team RC
I go with the original diagnosis of Cryptocaryon and if it were my fish, that is how I would treat it.
 

JHemdal

New member
People dispensing aquarium advice might benefit from reading this link, starting at #5, about midway down the page:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/12/review2

One important excerpt:

"When answering a question about a fish that you have not seen firsthand, never give your answer in absolutes, rather say; "your fish may have Cryptocaryon" instead of "your fish have Cryptocaryon". This gives the person pause for thought, and they are more likely to double check your answer."



Jay
 

jmaneyapanda

Commencing hatred
Jay, I dont disagree with your comment. We dont KNOW. It that case, though, we are all "armchair fish doctors", yourself included. And this forum is pointless. We are offering advice. No one os saying "I KNOW it is crypto". We are just saying we believe it to be crypto, and not lympho.

And stop quoting yourslef as refernce.:p

Sent you a pM.
 

JHemdal

New member
Umm, no - I won't stop using my own work as a reference. Saves quite a bit on typing. Besides, I trust my own information. Why don't YOU stop using yourself as a resource? Same difference....

Your original post was, "crypto. Definitely not lympho". That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You first said that you KNOW it is Cryptocaryon - but now you just posted, and I quote, "We are just saying we believe it to be crypto" so - you took my advice after all and changed your definitive statement...good enough.

Now - lets get some more information from the OP.....


Jay
 

Untamed12

New member
I appreciate all the experience and knowledge you both have. Thank you for your replies.

As I mentioned, the odd thing is that the fish behaviour is completely normal. It seems very active and healthy.

These spots have been there for at least two weeks now. No other fish shows any sign of similar problem.

It may well be a secondary problem related to crypto. My achilles shows what I believe to be crypto in many, many very small white specs, which seem to be slightly raised. That has been the case for over 1 year now. This fish has also been in the tank for 1 year.

This could be some kind of immune system response to crypto. This may just be the end game of "living with cyrpto" for too long.

I do happen to have a sequence of photos taken every two days for the past 10 days. It is clear that these spots move around, so that supports diagnosis of cyrpto.

Unfortunately, until this fish starts to show some behavioural change, I'm never going to be able to catch him to treat him.

Dec 31
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Jan 4
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Jan 10
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SDguy

Fish heads unite!
Premium Member
FWIW, tangs that are eating and otherwise acting "healthy" are some of the easiest to catch. They are always the first in the trap....to the point of being annoying when trying to catch other fish.

Edt : But after looking at your fish list, and reading that this has been going on for a year, I'm not sure how catching even one or two tangs to treat would help :(
 

JHemdal

New member
Thanks - very cool how you can see the healing on that spine injury over time.

You can see how the spots are moving around, so it is not likely Lymphocystis, or that might be a smaller component of the total spots.

There are some problems with mucus production that has an unknown etiology (to me anyway) but I've never seen it that widespread. Basically, you do a skin scrape and all you see are mucus cells, growing out as a plug from the body. I have an Asian Arowana that develops that syndrome, and I've seen it in marine fish also, including tangs - usually around the head though. Since I don't know what causes it, I don't like giving it as a diagnosis.

So, in lieu of a skin scrape to rule out that differential diagnosis, I agree with the others that leaves Cryptocaryon as the likely problem...and you'll probably have to deal with that sooner rather than later.

Jay
 

jmaneyapanda

Commencing hatred
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14130357#post14130357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Umm, no - I won't stop using my own work as a reference. Saves quite a bit on typing. Besides, I trust my own information. Why don't YOU stop using yourself as a resource? Same difference....

Your original post was, "crypto. Definitely not lympho". That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You first said that you KNOW it is Cryptocaryon - but now you just posted, and I quote, "We are just saying we believe it to be crypto" so - you took my advice after all and changed your definitive statement...good enough.

Now - lets get some more information from the OP.....


Jay

You got me Jay. You are right, everyone else is wrong. Everyone is an "armchair fish doctor", but you. It is right, because you have said so before. Goodbye.
 

AuroraDrvr

New member
It definitely is both.

My guess is that the Crypto (Ich) burrowed into the fish, and developed. Once the parasites released themselves from the fish's body to reproduce, the, albeit tiny, wounds from the Crypto attracked Lympho. Now there are Lympho growths growing on former Crypto burrowing wounds.

JMO.
 
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Elysia

New member
Hi, I know next to nothing about fish diseases, beyond the "regular" hobbyist stuff. I do know that a major cut in the side like that would be a potential problem for any fish, I'd imagine w/ osmosregulation and infection. It is often supposed that a fish is immuno-compromised (due to any number of reasons) if it is infested w/ a parasite such as Crypto -- I'm curious as to why this fish was able to heal so nicely (it appears) when, at the same time, it is showing signs of being unhealthy.
 

Untamed12

New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14136113#post14136113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elysia
Hi, I know next to nothing about fish diseases, beyond the "regular" hobbyist stuff. I do know that a major cut in the side like that would be a potential problem for any fish, I'd imagine w/ osmosregulation and infection. It is often supposed that a fish is immuno-compromised (due to any number of reasons) if it is infested w/ a parasite such as Crypto -- I'm curious as to why this fish was able to heal so nicely (it appears) when, at the same time, it is showing signs of being unhealthy.

Yes, this is part of the question. His behaviour continues to be perfectly normal and healthy. This is further supported by how well he healed from a nasty wound. (It is now 12 days since the injury and the wound has completely closed).

Also...whatever he seems to be displaying doesn't seem to get passed on to any other fish. Two weeks of selcon hasn't changed anything, so I'm now trying some fresh garlic.

I suppose I will just wait and see if the situation changes.
 

Untamed12

New member
Another 12 days have passed and this fish is not showing any sign of improvement. I would say that it has definitely become worse.

He continues to eat well and I've been feeding a wide variety of crushed garlic, selcon, antibiotics, vitamins etc. He is certainly ingesting the stuff, but it doesn't seem to be making any difference.

He continues to be the only fish in the tank to display this problem.

I also believe that he is breathing more rapidly, suggesting that his gills are affected.
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