Don't laugh... All I have is a tank... and a dream (nightmare?)

What do you think about melevsreef's closed loop idea at: http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html with DRILLING holes in the bottom. A 1000GPH with 2 returns that split into 4 returns perhaps is approx 250GPH per return spicket (I'm sure there's a name for this...).

I'm going to draw a picture of some of the crazy ideas that I'm dreaming up, and then could you pick at it as to what I might want to change, rearrange, make simpler, or give up on???

For instance... I think I'm going to drill 4 holes... all sorta close to one another... 3 returns and 1 larger drain. As I just said this out in writing for the 1st time, it sounds like a bad idea. There's probably a simpler choice. I was trying to hide everything, but perhaps this is not possible...

Update on tank progression...
Thanks to sidewinder Scott (and was it Erin?- class act all the way!) I've aquired about 83lbs of liverock. My goal was to aquire at LEAST 50lbs this weekend so that I could start cycling my deadrock (DR). The sundried DR had been soaked in a high saltwater mix for 2 days. I then put into a tub with good circulation and 1.024 water for 2 days. With the LR aquired today, I also added an old skilter to each of the tubs, along with 260W of CF lighting above. Added water and is now at .022 Is there anything that I should add/do more? Oh, and of course, I have the tank. Am I forgetting anything?

Goals now are:
-- Build a stand/canopy
-- Determine a skimmer (ASM G2 is the leading recommendation for this 63gal)
-- Find pumps/powerheads (1 for sump + other(s) for target 1300gph+ flow)
-- Build a sump/fuge to save some $ (possibly a 29 for sump/fuge/QT all together)

Are there any things that I'm missing out on that I should be doing?
 
You don't want one big powerhead. Having several allows you to point them in different directions causing random flow through the tank. In my 120 (I finally have it up and running) I have two #3 and two #2 Koralia which totals 2,900 gph. I also have dual overflows that run 600 gph each, making a total 4,100 gph. Each overflow has two return tubes, so a total of 4. My sump is a 40 gallon tank with a refugium, skimmer, and return section. I am running a Mag 12 since it has a maximum 1200 gph. You don't want your return pump to be greater than what your overflow system can handle. Yes, you will have some head loss but you are only going to have 2-3 feet of head loss most likely.

For the overflow system you probably don't want a single drain that will handle 1000 ghp because it sounds risky to me lol. That would mean your entire tank you empty in about 17 seconds through just the drain. My other main reason for not having your drain so big is that if engineers who design aquariums are not putting a drain that big in smaller tanks, you shouldn't either lol. If you do want more flow you should probably make two overflows, you will also get better water circulation and your fish won't be sucked to the drain ha-ha.

With all that said I would stick to one overflow and target 500-600 gph through that. This is about the max you will find sold by companies who have engineers designing the tanks. Then put a couple powerheads in there to add a little more flow where you want it.

To post a picture get an account on photobucket.com. You will copy the code on the line "HTML tag" and paste it in your reply. It is pretty simple and you can upload a lot of pictures on there.
 
Thanks jeepers... I read this really quickly because I've got to run. Its something I need to think about a little more deeply... I'll be back later tonight.

Okay... so I couldn't figure out a way to add a picture... so I spent all morning drawing on excell. All of this is just a crazy idea right now. Please tell me if this will work for this 63G acrylic tank:

- There's 4 holes drilled in the overflow 1 large drain / 3 returns
1 return is from the sump and with return director low and expelling front
2 returns are from closed loop with a SCWD wavemaker that have 2 outlets (high & low)
- The closed loop pump (melev's reef) draws right from the drain (Is this okay?) as the water is flowing to the sump
- The fuge is located right next to the quarantine tank (because I wanted a smaller light)
Although the water will not be flowing over the fuge, a low glass will hold in sand but allow water/nutrient transfer???
 

Attachments

Wow never seen anyone draw on excel why not just use paint? lol
A few comments I have, I wouldnt put the QT under the stand cause
a) you really want to be able to see all of the fish/coral
b) I think that being in a stand might stress out the fish.
I would just make your fuge bigger, and have a QT that sits next to your tank, temp.
CL
I am kindof doing what your doing, except
all of my water is going down into the sump through the overflow (I cant/chose not to drill my tank) and then T off into the fuge then sump. from there a return pump pumps water out of my sump and through 4 loc-line returns that can be adjusted in any direction that I want.
 
I think it all looks good but the QT. The point of the QT is to remove new fish, corals, inverts, and sick fish from the water column which houses your other fish and coral. If you have a sick fish you can't use any medications on them the way you have the QT set up. If the medication moved to your sump you may kill all your corals and inverts. I think Kent is right on having the QT outside and away from your tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10383071#post10383071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SunDevil95

Thank you for your help by the way! Any other great advice?

What's the rush. I just moved my livestock from my hastily set up 72G to a 30G while I prepare the system.

My Mistakes:
1. I didn't buy a reef-ready 72G Bow, so I have no built in overflow - bad
2. I didn't have enough room behind the aquarium to add an overflow or a hang on fuge if I wanted.
3. The 72 Bow is tough to fit equipment underneath, and, again, I didn't have room behind the tank
4. I didn't know that painting the back of the tank was a great idea
5. I didn't have the money together to do 72 G correctly (new baby and all)
6. I hadn't even considered what happens to PH / Alk with top off water
7. I wanted better lighting, probably MH/T5 but I didn't have room for a chiller and 150s just don't seem to be the right choicein MH for me.

Anyway, I didn't kill anything. In fact, the stuff I had was doing great and still is in the smaller tank with a bigger skimmer. It's just that if I wanted to move on, I didn't want to be stuck with what's I had.

1. I've rearranged my office in order to allow for a walking space behind the aquariums.
2. I've placed both aquariums next to each other so that I can transfer from the QT easily (which the 30 will be when the 72 is running)

Since I started doing this a few months ago, I haven't gone more than 2 weeks without a 30% or more water change with ro/di water. That requires effort and time. I test my parameters constantly. That requires effort and time. I study this forum and others, speak with knowledgeable people and keep up to date on options for my reef system.

The most important piece of advice I can give you is to slow the heck down. What, it's been 5 days and you think you've got the "perfect" cost-effective system worked out? I hate to burst your bubble, but that's just not how it works. This hobby is full of successful intelligent people. If you are as far ahead of the curve as your posts make me believe you think you are, you must be verging on the intelligence of Einstein with the work ethic of Paul Bunyan or using some substance that makes you believe that's exactly who you are.
 
Heheh! I forgot to add that little piece of information... the QT is actually COMPLETELY walled off from the actual sump by glass and by use of the skilter (I know skilters are archaic now... but I have 2 laying around), I can skim and filter this separate. Although I would like to buy another tank, I fret to think of buying another... my wife would kill me, and we have almost no space to really put it. The great part is that I could piggyback on the lighting for the fuge and everything will be in one place. My idea was to get a 29 tank, with (ballpark estimations of this 30.5"x12.5"x18.75"). First 9" for skimmer (footprint avg) and drain. The next 5" for baffles (14" total), 4" for pump return (18" total), 4" for fuge (22" total), and 9.5" for QT (=11gal). If this doesn't work, I'd buy a 10 gallon tank and put it just next to it anyway. I was thinking a heater or chiller by contact would maintain temp. in the QT.

Kentanner, are you saying that yours is similar but you have a T in the drain that diverts some water to the sump and some to the fuge? For all of the returns I was planning on loc-line tubing. One return is from the pump from the sump (approx 500g) and the other 2 which branch to 4 loc lines with the SCWD wavemaker (Idea adapted from melev's reef pages).

Really important needed answers:
- Are those 4 holes (1 drain, about 2" from each other going to be too many holes) in one general area?
- Is the SCWD wavemaker idea too complicated... at which the answer would be to just get a few powerheads.
- If the wavemaker idea isn't too complicated, can I tap into the drain from the overflow to draw water from?

The picture (excell attachment few replies above), was interesting to draw. I do feel like I should explain myself... as a teacher who uses macs, they do not have paint (or perhaps they do but are not on school computers). I sometimes have to make diagrams and instead of making copies of hand drawn things, for some stupid AR reason, I have to make "perfect" computer generated ones for my students. I've actually become quicker at doing things like than you might think. When I said all morning, I actually meant about 20 minutes. Heheh!!! It is pretty funny though!!!
 
Hi OneDayMatt and All!

The only real rush is that I hope to have most things going by Thanksgiving (family and guests to be in). Also in 2 weeks, I'll be teaching school, but right now, I have ALL DAY to learn and build things. I love to build things! From the 1st thread, my timeline has moved back about 2 weeks, but I think it's reasonable. Here's the details of things I need to do. I'm using this thread as a diary myself. I respect your advice, so please tell me EXACTLY where I am or might be going wrong. Also, I'm going mainly off the advice 4 LFS employee's, 2-3 mentors, and about 5 others who have really taken the time to advise me. Seriously, please don't just say that I'm going too fast... please tell me WHERE and HOW I am going too fast. I'm NOT new to reefkeeping, but I'm VERY new to doing it in this capacity. I really do NEED and I will listen to your advice... (please know that I am trying to be humble and I only am writing the follwing so that you can advise me better... not to combat you)

DONE
1) Live rock being cycled in bins
- Status: I got more than expected and very well cured liverock for an unbeatable price. It is in tubs right now with old skilters and plenty of flow under 260W of light. The 45 DeadR that I have is insignificant right now, because I'm comfortable with the 83lbs of LR to start, and will from now be considered base rock. Daily water tests are pretty much 0. Alk / Ph / Nitrites / Nitrates at this time.

TO BE DONE
1) Build a stand/hood (Goal: 7/28- but okay without until 8/4 deadline)
- Status: After looking at about 8 stores, online, and such, we've developed a design that is A) FUNCTIONAL to the specifications of the tank and sump and B) FORM that my wife wants. This should be done by next weekend.
2) Drill & Plumbing (Goal: 7/26)
- Status: Not sure where overflows will be... corners or middle... but stand is built to either choice. Need to attach overflow. (2 days?) Also would like to pondfoam back (opaque black) wall and overflow (another 2 days?). Plumbing... just acquring pieces like bulkheads, piping, ball valves, and others needed for unglued visual check... officially (permanently glued) put together when sump is assembled.
3) Build sump/fuge/QT (Goal: 8/3)
- Status: Aquiring 29g tank sump. Acquiring skimmer. Have worked with glass before. Studying heights/measurements now. Separate QT space avail but would like an all-in-one if possible. Learning a lot of needs/necessities.
4) Test of all equiptment and fill tank (Goal: 8/4)
5) Livesand bed installed, aquascaping LR, QT 2 damsels (Goal: 8/5)

Note: Teachers report 8/6 (Summer is over!) but no kids... so nights are free + 1 more weekend. Will be REALLY busy for next month or so. 20% water changes every 2 weeks.

6) Water stabilized by 8/25 and add cleaner crew & 2 QT'd damsels and 1st 20% water change
7) Frequent water checks for 2 weeks (9/8) if okay then add a few softies/mushrooms and possibly a fish or two to QT
8) Every 3 weeks (synchronized with 3 weeks recommended in QT) schedule possible:
- Provided water is stable some additions: (9/29- add and damsels donated back to store) / (10/20) / (10/10- 2 weeks prior to thanksgiving)

Projected goals by Thanksgiving: Cleaner crew working awesome, cycled rock with good coraline algae growing, Pondfoam with coraline algae, 6-8 soft corals, 6-8 fish, and a healthy fuge thriving.

Thank you for posting your mistakes. I hope to learn from them, but please help me understand more about these corresponding to your learning:
1) Yes I have to build my overflow. I plan to drill acrylic tank myself. Not a lot of anxiety because I've worked with plastics and glass before. Are there worries for overflows that you experienced? or things I need to keep a heads up on?
2) Nothing should be on the back hopefully. Wife wanted the sump primarily to hide all the equiptment. (No argument from me, for all of the other benefits). We are planning the stand build to seat a 90gal just in case we decide to upgrade so there's plenty of back space. As it is right now, there is enough room to place a (Seclone pro is it?) hang on skimmer if absolutely necessary. Would you recommend hang on the back fuges over sump fuges?
3) The stand actually slants in (inspired by Asian furniture- I'm Japanese) and there is more room at the base than there is at tank level. A lot can fit in htere.
4) Why is painting the back of the tank a good idea? My back wall should be foam. Will that be okay?
5) I'm a school teacher in the 48th worst teacher pay state. I have a 3 year old... So pretty much, I never have money. But seriously, I will research to get the best VALUE with the best HEALTH of my reef being the 1st priority. I realze that if I can't find deals that I may have to pony up some $ for some of the things that I NEED. There's actually a good threshold of where used is not worth the risk of new. Ex: I'm looking for a good skimmer- I want it at 60% below the lowest new price I can find new. If its 50% I might if I trust it, but anything less of a value, I'll probably buy new. The rush right now is to learn about recommendations so I know what to look for. This is WAY TOO DEBATED though for me to make any sense out of it. I just figure (if I HAD to at the worst) that I at least need one rated for 150gal which will be over 250% of the tank (and I don't plan on a lot of fish anyway.
6) Okay... Here's where I have a lot to learn. In my old 20 reef, there were frequent water top offs, and water changes. What have you learned, that you would share about water PH and Alk? This 63 is 3x the tank that I was used to. There will be a learning curve here for me. A sump is new for me. I've heard that more water is actually easier, but it is the unknown at this point. PLEASE share!!!
7) Everyone says that I will want more lights (halides) for larger corals, but I know I want to master soft corals & mushrooms before I move up and better lighting. I really am perfectly happy with softies, despite what people say. I might dabble, but I think 260 CF lighing will be suffice if I put them up high. A chiller is out of the question right now budget wise. T5's are what I wanted, but a deal came up, and I actually came out with more wattage than what I was planning with T5's. I wanted to utilize more spectrum with a T5, but oh well... I can always add one.

I'm far from Einstein, I'll assure you that. But I have 3 years experience. Right now, I'm not Paul Bunyan, but I'm a stay-at-home dad with at least an average of 6 hours of time to dedicate to learning (3 of which, Logan is down for a nap). I have been a little obsessed for the past week, I'll admit. I know starting tomorrow, I begin teacher preparation mode... and my time will dwindle slowly until school starts and then time will be precious as I teach, coach, be a dad, a husband, and a reefer!

But seriously, what are some things that I need to worry about? I'm nervous and excited at the same time. I liken it to the kid who has driven a hand-me-down car for all of his life, and now putting together a dream sports car. I don't plan on driving too fast, and I don't want to be out of control, but I still know how to drive. Am I just not getting it (slowing down)?

Expendatures (Projected)
$100 63gal acrylic undrilled aquarium
$140 Corallife CF 260W
$180 83lbs of Cured Fiji LiveRock
($150) Stand / Canopy Build
($50) Sump/Fuge/QT Build
($75) Tank readiness including plumbing
($150) Skimmer
($200) Pumps/Powerheads (Goal 20x/h+)
($75) Substrate (Live Sand? DSB)
($50) Cleaning Crew

Additionals that I have already:
40lbs of 60lb tub of Instant Ocean
2 skilters (skimmer/filter)
1 hang on the back powerhead filter
1 300gph powerhead
2 120gph powerheads
Test kit Alk / Ph / Nitrites / Nitrates
Bottle of buffer
Bag of carbon
Specific Gravity Test
2 Thermomometers






What's the rush. I just moved my livestock from my hastily set up 72G to a 30G while I prepare the system.

My Mistakes:
1. I didn't buy a reef-ready 72G Bow, so I have no built in overflow - bad
2. I didn't have enough room behind the aquarium to add an overflow or a hang on fuge if I wanted.
3. The 72 Bow is tough to fit equipment underneath, and, again, I didn't have room behind the tank
4. I didn't know that painting the back of the tank was a great idea
5. I didn't have the money together to do 72 G correctly (new baby and all)
6. I hadn't even considered what happens to PH / Alk with top off water
7. I wanted better lighting, probably MH/T5 but I didn't have room for a chiller and 150s just don't seem to be the right choicein MH for me.


Anyway, I didn't kill anything. In fact, the stuff I had was doing great and still is in the smaller tank with a bigger skimmer. It's just that if I wanted to move on, I didn't want to be stuck with what's I had.

1. I've rearranged my office in order to allow for a walking space behind the aquariums.
2. I've placed both aquariums next to each other so that I can transfer from the QT easily (which the 30 will be when the 72 is running)

Since I started doing this a few months ago, I haven't gone more than 2 weeks without a 30% or more water change with ro/di water. That requires effort and time. I test my parameters constantly. That requires effort and time. I study this forum and others, speak with knowledgeable people and keep up to date on options for my reef system.

The most important piece of advice I can give you is to slow the heck down. What, it's been 5 days and you think you've got the "perfect" cost-effective system worked out? I hate to burst your bubble, but that's just not how it works. This hobby is full of successful intelligent people. If you are as far ahead of the curve as your posts make me believe you think you are, you must be verging on the intelligence of Einstein with the work ethic of Paul Bunyan or using some substance that makes you believe that's exactly who you are.

Hobby Experience: Long enough to take things slowly
 
By the way... if I drill these 4 holes behind the overflow, there will be one big drain (calculating necessity) and from the top view, at 3 and 9 o'clock view about 2" from the drain, and at the 6 o'clock will be the sump return hole
 
Well, I think the Damsels are a mistake. You won't want them in there when you get the fish you really would like.

The 260 W coralife CF is fine for softies, I have one that was on my 72. However, buyer beware the bulbs need to be replaced every 6 mos. Also, individual parabolic reflectors are the key to the T5's. The CF fixture has one large reflector for all of the bulbs. Trust me, I've had to take it out to replace the ballast only to find out later that the ballast worked but some of its circuitry was loose. By the way, I've got Porite an SPS coral that happened to be on a mushroom rock I bought growing just fine under a 96W coralife PC fixture on my 30G.

As far as skimmers go, man, I have gone through a ton of ideas about the skimmer for my 72. I'm leaning towards the Bermuda BPS 3C (http://www.bermudaaquatics.com/3C.htm). I've considered many options and I've got a good space behind my system to put in pretty much anything reasonable. I considered the Tunze 9015, but one look at the Tunze forum and I saw that they weren't as reliable or simple as their slick packaging might imply from actual owners needing parts and having trouble getting foam. Hell, I run a Prizm Pro (DON'T GET THE REGULAR PRIZM) on my 30G and have 0 problems with it. It produces a substantial amount of stinky skimmate. I've also heard of several people modding skimmers, even the hallowed Euro Reef skimmers. If I'm paying upwards of $600 for a skimmer on a 72G aquarium , that thing shouldn't need any mods at all. Since I'm waiting to purchase, I'm in good shape though. I'm also considering one of the AETech ETSS skimmers or the Precision Marine Bullet 1. I'm not very interested in HOB skimmers as they (from personal experience) can be a bit of a pain to adjust because of evaporation.

As far as dKH and calcium stability, I use kent products. 1. Liquid Calcium 2. Pro dKH. My 72 will probably run a calc reactor, but not until the stock level is enough to need it. If you top off without using something like these two products, life will be tough. The PH of pro dKH is extremely high, follow the instructions on the bottle.

I'm not using any substrate at all. That has always been the source of cyano and diatom blooms, and those are things I just don't want in my system. They go away, but they annoy me. Live rock and plain glass are fine with me.

So, you're using foam on the back of the aquarium for a "natural" look. I'm painting because I want a nice look before the coraline has covered the back completely. I've always liked the gloss black look on the back of reef aquariums. I've got black backgrounds behind them right now.

As far as your clean-up crew goes, stay away from anything but the tiny blue-legged hermits. I've found the red-legged varieties either becoming too aggressive or feasting on my Galexia and Porite at night.

When it comes to flow, yes, flow is important but so is heat. Try to keep as much heat out of the system as possible. Even with PCs, tanks can get toasty in a hurry, especially in a warm environment like Phoenix. You'll probably have a ton more evaporation that I do as well since Houston has fairly high humidity in comparison to PHX.

Lastly, I'm sure you know this, but always keep fresh RO/DI water on hand as you'll need it for top off and water evaporates quickly on tanks with large surface area.
 
I would do corner over flows. becouse center overflo''s are a pain in the rear to work with.


I sometimes wonder if I am helping anyone... lol ... becouse 1/2 the time my answers are short and simple.
 
I wanted to let you know that on All glass aquariums overflow, the drain is once inch in diameter and the return is 3/4 inch. This can only handle up to 600 gallons. I am telling you this because if you are making one "big" drain hole it will have to be very big if you are still trying for more than 600 gph out of one drain. Once you get it set up take some pics and let us see it :)
 
Thanks ODM, RR, & J!
The advice that I've had has been great! Back in the day, damsels were the way to go to start up the tank and to make sure there's no spikes that do-in more expensive fish. Then of course, keep them or donate them back.
I'm planning to keep all of the corals that I initially get in the middle to upper areas of the tank until I get comfortable with the lights. Congrats on the porite score, and it sounds like it's doing good! I think I got a pretty good deal on lights, but I did want T5's, and I think I want to get a handle on things before I jump into halides... I'm a little intimidated.
Thanks for the recommendations for skimmers. The way I'm playing it is I'm looking for a few matches in recs. and then I'm researching. Everyone seems to be partial to theirs and then talks smack about ALL others. I'm learning though. Your list ODM was probably the best so far. Thanks, I'll go check them out.
Water quality, I've got to read up on it. After I thought about it, my last tank had a few fish, a lot of crabs and snails, and a few softies. Basically, I looked at a lot of rock the entire time. I'm planning on a lot more corals this time (collected over a long period of time) around so I'll keep the reactor high on the list.
I can't personally not do a substrate. I like the look. I had a bad cyano storm at the end and with the flood in the house, I lost, but it doesn't change my preference. How deep does a DSB start at???
I don't know, but when I saw sidewinder's wall, I was amazed, so I can't see not doing a 'natural look'. I do not know of the issues that it may bring up though... only the good things. Are there any problems? Oh, and the problem of it looking weird until some coraline algae starts building up. How long do you think that will take?
Hmmm... you just taught me a great lesson. It seems as if in the last tank I did occasionally find some blue legs from time to time... and furthermore they seemed to become scare from time to time... blue legged hermits it is then!
Heat!?! In the house or in the water? Just kidding. I'm thinking that these fish are going to have a better climate than me. Any suggestions for pumps that are great about heat?
RR! your help is appreciated. As a newbie to having overflows, how often am I going to need to get in there to maintain it? I was figuring about every other month.
Jeepers... I scrapped the 1 drain idea. Now there will be 3 holes 1 drain, 2 returns in the middle of the tank, and 1 drain and 1 return from the sump behind the overflow. I've taken some pics, but I need to get to photobucket and learn how to put them on here.
 
About the Ca reactor, I'd look into a 2 part solution setup if I were you. That's what I'll be doing. It's less expensive and easier to avoid horrible accidents according the thread of the month on RK (reef keeping online magazine, associated with this site)
 
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