Dosing aspartic acid

I'm going to try a amll amount L aspartic acid again @ 3/4 tsps about 4 grams for 650 gallons; 2x per week for a month or two.I mixed it in 1.5 gallons of ro/di water at room temp overnight , in a bucket with a small power head.
It dissolved completely.Then I dosed it by the cup full to the 6 coral tanks in the system to spread it out .
On the days I dose it I'm reducing the vodka dosing by 10ml from the standard 40ml to approximate equivalent total organic carbon dose.

Could be coincidental and or temporary; but a 0.1 bump in pH occurred overnight after dosing it( 8.1 to 8.2 at low point/ orp dropped 10mv 360 to 350 .That surprised me since I was anticipating a small drop in pH given the H in it. Subsequently reading up on aspartic acid I noted it does act a a hydrogen receptor in ATP syntase.

Any caveats/ comments ;David?
 
tmz said:
I'm going to try a amll amount L aspartic acid again @ 3/4 tsps about 4 grams for 650 gallons; 2x per week for a month or two.I mixed it in 1.5 gallons of ro/di water at room temp overnight , in a bucket with a small power head.
It dissolved completely.Then I dosed it by the cup full to the 6 coral tanks in the system to spread it out .
On the days I dose it I'm reducing the vodka dosing by 10ml from the standard 40ml to approximate equivalent total organic carbon dose.

Could be coincidental and or temporary; but a 0.1 bump in pH occurred overnight after dosing it( 8.1 to 8.2 at low point/ orp dropped 10mv 360 to 350 .That surprised me since I was anticipating a small drop in pH given the H in it. Subsequently reading up on aspartic acid I noted it does act a a hydrogen receptor in ATP syntase.

Any caveats/ comments ;David?

The pH rise is probably due to it actually being there in solution as aspartate, the basic form. The free acid of aspartic acid can be hard to dissolve.
 
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i tried to find aspartic acid only to find out it is a bad news part of cheap sugar replacements. guess i wont be putting it in my tank

Aspartame although it includes asparate and aspartate are different things. I've not been able to find any similar health concerns for aspartate .
 
i tried to find aspartic acid only to find out it is a bad news part of cheap sugar replacements. guess i wont be putting it in my tank

Well that's just horribly misinformed. Aspartame does include a molecule of aspartate, but that doesn't mean aspartate is bad. Matter of fact you cannot live without it.
 
is aspartate and aspartic acid the same thing? i also read bodybuilders and athletes use aspartic acid to boost testesterone to improve growth. i read that apartic acid is a synthetic amino acid. there is so much gunk out there i would need a big sieve to strain out the good stuff
 
Aspartate is the basic form of aspartic acid, so yes they are same thing. It's like acetate and acetic acid. Once you dissolve either in water, you will have a mixture of the two. Aspartic acid can be made synthetically or your body builds it for you. Either way it is the same molecule.
 
aspartic acid is synthetic and is not found naturally in corals. here is the research paper proving which aminos are and are not used as well as methods and equipment used.
as i said i dont think i will be using it
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/322/0213/bj3220213.htm

That's not even close to what that article says.

The very first table shows asparagine and aspartic acid as being synthesized by the coral does it not?

It says straight up that they found everything radiolabelled but threonine except they didn't look at cysteine and tryptophane.
 
is aspartate and aspartic acid the same thing? i also read bodybuilders and athletes use aspartic acid to boost testesterone to improve growth. i read that apartic acid is a synthetic amino acid. there is so much gunk out there i would need a big sieve to strain out the good stuff

It is dextro aspartic acid (DAA) that is used as a supplement in that capacity, rather than the levo- form being discussed here. Sorry to go OT, but IMHO more research is needed to assess how effective it actually is. I'd also be hesitant to mess around with an NMDA agonist that doesn't have a mucg research about long term safety. Just my two cents. Sorry for the off topic post.
 
aspartic acid is synthetic and is not found naturally in corals. here is the research paper proving which aminos are and are not used as well as methods and equipment used.
as i said i dont think i will be using it
There is no proven science as to whether dosing it will be helpful but it suggests dosing it may be beneficial It seems like an excellent way to add some nitrogen and organic C.
Whether or not you choose to put l aspartic acid in your aqaurium is none of my business or concern.
However, misinformation about the nature of aspartame and aspartate and misrepresentation of what a cited study actually says needs to be addressed.

In brief corals use aspartate and need it, but they may have limited ability or no ability to synthesize it and may take it up from the water of food sources.
The study you cited further supports this hypothesis . It doesn't discount the role of aspartic acid at all since it is identified as one of the 17 amminos present in corals . It does, however , note that the researchers were unable to trace synthesis within the coral. That suggests to me that the coral may be getting it at least some of it from the water or perhaps food sources and further that dosing it is likely a good thing beyond just a good way to add nitrogen and organic C.

In the abstract of the study they clearly state:


Animals rely on their diet for amino acids that they are incapable either of synthesizing or of synthesizing in sufficient quantities to meet metabolic needs. These are the so-called 'essential amino acids'. This set of amino acids is similar among the vertebrates and many of the invertebrates. Previously, no information was available for amino acid synthesis by the most primitive invertebrates, the Cnidaria. The purpose of this study was to examine amino acid synthesis by representative cnidarians within the Order Scleractinia. Three species of zooxanthellate reef coral, Montastraea faveolata, Acropora cervicornis and Porites divaricata, and two species of non-zooxanthellate coral, Tubastrea coccinea and Astrangia poculata, were incubated with <sup>14</sup>C-labelled glucose or with the <sup>14</sup>C-labelled amino acids glutamic acid, lysine or valine. Radiolabel tracer was followed into protein amino acids. A total of 17 amino acids, including hydroxyproline, were distinguishable by the techniques used. Of these, only threonine was not found radiolabelled in any of the samples. We could not detect tryptophan or cysteine, nor distinguish between the amino acid pairs glutamic acid and glutamine, or aspartic acid and asparagine. Eight amino acids normally considered essential for animals were made by the five corals tested, although some of them were made only in small quantities. These eight amino acids are valine, isoleucine, leucine, tyrosine, phenylalanine histidine, methionine and lysine. The ability of cnidarians to synthesize these amino acids could beyet another indicator of a separate evolutionary history of the cnidarians from the rest of the Metazoa.



So, they couldn't distinguish pairings involving aspartic acid;that in no way says it wasn't there but quite the opposite. They were also only able to detect 8 that were made by the coral and aspartic acid is conspicuosly absent from that list of 8.
Even though later in the study Asx ( choice between aspartic acid and asparagine) is listed in table 1 as an essential amminio acid for cnidarians.


 
First a note about the asparagine aspartic acid pair. Aspartic acid has a carboxylic acid sidechain. Asparagine is the amide derivative of that acid, so the exact same molecule but with the acid converted to an amide. The pathways to make them are the same and if you can make one then you can make the other. So it isn't surprising that the authors didn't take the extra steps to try to separate the two.

My take on the finding are this. The only amino acid that they did not find with a radiolabel was threonine. That doesn't necessarily mean that the corals being studied can't make threonine, it just means that if they do they don't use glucose or any of the other radiolabeled precursors that these were fed.

They did not test for cysteine or tryptophan, so we know nothing about those two from this study.

For all of the other aminos, they found them radiolabeled. That means they were produced from the labeled glucose or amino precursors that the corals were fed on. So they must have been synthesized by the coral itself. Or at worst some endosymbiont of that coral.

This is especially born out in table 2. Here we see that for the Asx pair (asparagine and aspartic acid) which is the first on the list, it is marked ++ meaning it made a big spot on the autoradiograph or a big peak in the HPLC. That means that not only is the coral making the aspartic acid, but it is making most of what it is using.

The only one where the data wasn't clear was proline, which showed up in the TLC plates but not in the HPLC analysis. They also said this though,

Post-column derivatization of primary amines with 2-mercaptoethanol and o-phthaldialdehyde provided for fluorimetric detection

And that means that proline doesn't get labelled and explains why they don't detect proline in the HPLC data. So let's say the jury is still out on proline.

That leaves 16 amino acids including 8 that are normally essential aminos for most other metazoa, are being synthesized in the coral. And we aren't saying that the others aren't made there too, there was no evidence anywhere in this paper that any aminos weren't being made. It merely says that at least 16 of the 20 are being made. And aspartic acid and asparagine are in that list.
 
Eight amino acids normally considered essential for animals were made by the five corals tested, although some of them were made only in small quantities. These eight amino acids are valine, isoleucine, leucine, tyrosine, phenylalanine histidine, methionine and lysine. The ability of cnidarians to synthesize these amino acids could beyet another indicator of a separate evolutionary history of the cnidarians from the rest of the Metazoa.



So, they couldn't distinguish pairings involving aspartic acid;that in no way says it wasn't there but quite the opposite. They were also only able to detect 8 that were made by the coral and aspartic acid is conspicuosly absent from that list of 8.
Even though later in the study Asx ( choice between aspartic acid and asparagine) is listed in table 1 as an essential amminio acid for cnidarians.


In that sentence, they are only talking about the 8 that are normally essential. Aspartic isn't normally an essential. Most living things can make it. So it wouldn't have made that list.
 
Thanks for the calrifications David.
Nice work;you made it easy to understand ; I appreciate it. I'll read the paper again later with your insights in mind. I'll probably revisit Randy and Habib's stuff on it too.

In the meantime, I plan to use it sparingly as part of a carbon dosing regimen primarily for a little extra N .

Other than an early small bump in pH from the acetate as you explained it , and a small drop in PO4 today I haven't noted any changes. Corals are healthy as they usually are. I'm particularly interested in it's effects if any on some of the non sps species in my mixed reefs. I'll be watching the NO3 level too.
 
Why would that be weird? You've added a great nitrogen source, essentially a fertilizer.

Yeah, but from my understanding, it's a carbon source as well, right? So wouldn't that help reduce N&P as well?

I'm still dosing 3 salifert RED spoons (the small one, not the big purple one) twice per week. I increased my 2 part dosing and my alk/ca seem to still consistently go down so I'm topping off my water with a little bit of whatever is needed to make up for it. I sort of don't like the instability but I have yet to find the daily dosing that meets my needs while dosing l-aspartic. Growth tips continue to be taking off. I don't have a picture to reference prior to me dosing but here is one now that maybe we can compare in a couple of weeks

1zlzxvCl.jpg
 
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i have come to the conclusion that the amino acid side is a lot deeper than i comprehended but im sure if i tag along i will learn a lot more about em. thanks for contributing to this thread. i will be tagging along for the ride and lessons.
 
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