mandarinfanatic
New member
till i understand more i will just continue using julian sprungs acropower
Dosing aspartic acid
- Thread starter rkb
- Start date
Yeah, but from my understanding, it's a carbon source as well, right? So wouldn't that help reduce N&P as well?
That's part of the idea. However typical carbon sources( vodka, vinegar, polymer pellets, sugar,etc) don't have any N or P coming in with them.
The thinking is that the bacteria encouraged by organic carbon(C) assimilate C, N and P in proportions similar to the proportions coming in as food ; a reduction in these 3 nutrients occurs when the bacteria are exported . The bacteria need all 3 ;if one or the other is in short supply, they won't grow.
There is also anaerobic denitrification occurring which bubbles out some more N as N2 nitrogen gas.
Thus, a lower proportion of N to P results in the tank than the imports( mostly foods). Many get undetectable N when dosing organics( which if truly 0 may cause corals to pale or starve) and still have higher than desirable PO4 Many successfully use gfo or other adsorbents to remove the unassimilated PO4 that reamins.
Some use direct N dosing ,as sodium nitrate ,for example, to achieve a more optimal balance in N and P. Some use commercial blends of amino acids.
Using aspartate contributes C and N so may serve a triple role:
a carbon source,
an N source to balance N an P proportions;and
an amino supplement useful to corals and other animals.
That's part of the idea. However typical carbon sources( vodka, vinegar, polymer pellets, sugar,etc) don't have any N or P coming in with them.
The thinking is that the bacteria encouraged by organic carbon(C) assimilate C, N and P in proportions similar to the proportions coming in as food ; a reduction in these 3 nutrients occurs when the bacteria are exported . The bacteria need all 3 ;if one or the other is in short supply, they won't grow.
There is also anaerobic denitrification occurring which bubbles out some more N as N2 nitrogen gas.
Thus, a lower proportion of N to P results in the tank than the imports( mostly foods). Many get undetectable N when dosing organics( which if truly 0 may cause corals to pale or starve) and still have higher than desirable PO4 Many successfully use gfo or other adsorbents to remove the unassimilated PO4 that reamins.
Some use direct N dosing ,as sodium nitrate ,for example, to achieve a more optimal balance in N and P. Some use commercial blends of amino acids.
Using aspartate contributes C and N so may serve a triple role:
a carbon source,
an N source to balance N an P proportions;and
an amino supplement useful to corals and other animals.
No, I haven't and since it's a proprietary blend I can't know what's in it but I'd bet it has a good deal of aspartate in the blend
That's a trusted name,imo. I've read many of his writings and use several of the 2 little fishes products.
I have used other commercial blends over the years and didn't note much difference in coral response but I feed well and may have enough naturally occurring aminos .
Commercial blends are pricey ; I have a large system. I wonder about shelf life for commercial blends and try to make a habit of knowing what I'm adding to the tank.
Last edited:
Here are 2 pllces I'm going to revisit:
Post 56 by Randy on page 3 of this thread gives some information on the role of acidic aminos on biomineralization.
Post 97 by Habib on this thread links a thread including an informative discussion with Randy and input by Eric Borneman and others:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ad.php?t=8455
xxvietxjustinxx
New member
Thank you for clearing that up. This is my understanding from the get go, I just had trouble putting it into words or correct terminology. Has there been any research done about overdosing C? I know that some tanks who overdose through BP or vinegar/vodka have noticed issues with cyano and other algae. Do you think that aspartate can be an contributing factor to this? That's my main concern here. While I initially began dosing aspartic acid to color up my colors, I'm thinking it could be redundant as well since it's adding C (even though I already run BP). My nitrates are already extremely low as I have a huge basketball sized ball of chaeto in my refugium (on a 100 gallon total system volume tank, no less) so I figured that having the added N would help?
I don't think it's redundant except perhaps for the C. I reduce the amount of ethanol I dose on days when I dose aspartate to even that off. Obviously, you can't do that with pellets, so the aspartate would be a net C addition to current dosing levels. Whether or not that would result in too much C for your tank is guesswork, observation and trial and error.
However, it wuld still add N and and the ammino acid.
Here are two articles on TOC (total organic carbon) and corals:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
Both suggest high TOC is harmful ; I'd note both are based on perceived harm from carbohydrates(polymers) as a significant part of TOC and that is only one type of organic carbon. There are thousands if not millions of organic compounds in seawater and aquariums. Nonetheless the study has some very useful information to ponder.
There is also a study that links coral mortality to excess glucose, a monomer. Pellets are polymers (carbohydrates) that go to monomers as they degrade. Monomers include sugars(glucose ,fructose, etc.) .
Soluble organics acetic acid and ethanol (vinegar and vodka) don't .
I don't know the pathway for the carbon in the aspartic acid (C4H7NO4) and whether it will produce monomers like glucose( C6H12O6) along the way. Someone ealse may be able to answer that. I don't think it will but don't know exactly what happens to the C in it or the carboxylic acid groups it produces.
I have had diffiuclty in the past with sugar even in small amounts though. I did not have similar issues with similar amounts of aspartate but will watch very closely this time.
However, it wuld still add N and and the ammino acid.
Here are two articles on TOC (total organic carbon) and corals:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
Both suggest high TOC is harmful ; I'd note both are based on perceived harm from carbohydrates(polymers) as a significant part of TOC and that is only one type of organic carbon. There are thousands if not millions of organic compounds in seawater and aquariums. Nonetheless the study has some very useful information to ponder.
There is also a study that links coral mortality to excess glucose, a monomer. Pellets are polymers (carbohydrates) that go to monomers as they degrade. Monomers include sugars(glucose ,fructose, etc.) .
Soluble organics acetic acid and ethanol (vinegar and vodka) don't .
I don't know the pathway for the carbon in the aspartic acid (C4H7NO4) and whether it will produce monomers like glucose( C6H12O6) along the way. Someone ealse may be able to answer that. I don't think it will but don't know exactly what happens to the C in it or the carboxylic acid groups it produces.
I have had diffiuclty in the past with sugar even in small amounts though. I did not have similar issues with similar amounts of aspartate but will watch very closely this time.
xxvietxjustinxx
New member
When I was referring to the redundancy, I was referring to the C and that only. Added nitrate would be a benefit consider my tank runs very close to undetectable with the Salifert kit.
My montipora spongodes is beginning to lose tissue but I can't tell if it's because the neighboring acro is stinging it or if it's because of the dosing. Thus far, everything else looks good. My chalice, which I thought was a goner, is recovering extremely well and is actually starting to get back it's yellow growing rim.
I read something about how a protein skimmer can take out some L-amino acids. Is this true? Is it possible that my tank is overskimming? I run an extremely oversized skimmer (SWC Cone Mini S). Thoughts?
It seems the corals may synthesize many (16 or so) . They need nitrogen to do that.
Some manufactures of amino supplements recommend stopping the skimmer for an hour or so. I don't plan on doing that for a number of reasons. I do spread the dose out into a number of areas.
I'm only on my second small dose of l aspartic acid
( 3 days apart). So it's too soon to make any meaningful observation.
All I have noted so far and some of it may be coincidental is:
an apparent uptick in NO3 form barely visible to undetectable (for years) to about a 0.5 reading per the Salifert test on several consecutive days so far;
and, some interesting pH and orp readings.
Ph rises about 0.1 within 24 hours of dosing then falls about 1.5 within 48 hours. Second dose brought it back up. This may confirm David's take that it stays as aspartate for a while and the hydroxide raises pH. But then after a day or so it seems to begin to break down or just get taken up as the negative carboxylic acid groups Randy Farley noted earlier may come into play.
This is still just a two dose observation ,certainly not a pattern yet.
As expected orp goes up as pH falls and vice versa;w not a big deal but at least its supporting the pH monitor reading.
Haven't seen any effect on skimming yet. I did note some surface foam like seafoam in an overflow that was never there before,though.
No discernible bump in phytoplankton or diatoms or anything different on the glass.
The animals are not showingany ill efects. Can't really say the are any improvements. Maybe a bit of richer color in some corals; maybe I'm just seeing what I hope to see.
Some manufactures of amino supplements recommend stopping the skimmer for an hour or so. I don't plan on doing that for a number of reasons. I do spread the dose out into a number of areas.
I'm only on my second small dose of l aspartic acid
( 3 days apart). So it's too soon to make any meaningful observation.
All I have noted so far and some of it may be coincidental is:
an apparent uptick in NO3 form barely visible to undetectable (for years) to about a 0.5 reading per the Salifert test on several consecutive days so far;
and, some interesting pH and orp readings.
Ph rises about 0.1 within 24 hours of dosing then falls about 1.5 within 48 hours. Second dose brought it back up. This may confirm David's take that it stays as aspartate for a while and the hydroxide raises pH. But then after a day or so it seems to begin to break down or just get taken up as the negative carboxylic acid groups Randy Farley noted earlier may come into play.
This is still just a two dose observation ,certainly not a pattern yet.
As expected orp goes up as pH falls and vice versa;w not a big deal but at least its supporting the pH monitor reading.
Haven't seen any effect on skimming yet. I did note some surface foam like seafoam in an overflow that was never there before,though.
No discernible bump in phytoplankton or diatoms or anything different on the glass.
The animals are not showingany ill efects. Can't really say the are any improvements. Maybe a bit of richer color in some corals; maybe I'm just seeing what I hope to see.
It added a bit of nuisance algae so I stopped last month. Didn't do what I had hoped in terms of additional PO4 reduction.
I'll still use it from time to time for it's value as an amino acid but not as a means to balance N and P.
I'll probably toy with sodium nitrate instead.
I'll still use it from time to time for it's value as an amino acid but not as a means to balance N and P.
I'll probably toy with sodium nitrate instead.
ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
It's not worth the worry it creates. It isn't directly testable for NO3. Rather, you eventually see some NO3 later (days). Several on RC reported overdose issues with no signs of a high NO3 issue. Made me worry so I stopped experimenting with it.
What are you hoping it accomplishes?
I agree that it is a fine experiment, and you can judge if it helped or not. 
I would say that many of the effects may be tghe same as vodka dosing, plus some others that you do not have with vodka.
I'd start slowly, as you suggest, but I wouldn't overly worry if it were my system.
For a 400 gallon tank, that ~1 g per week seems a fine starting dose. I'd personally dose some of it every day.
FWIW, I dose the equivalent of about 5-6 grams of acetic acid every day to my 120 (~300 gallons total system volume).
I'd start slowly, as you suggest, but I wouldn't overly worry if it were my system.
For a 400 gallon tank, that ~1 g per week seems a fine starting dose. I'd personally dose some of it every day.
FWIW, I dose the equivalent of about 5-6 grams of acetic acid every day to my 120 (~300 gallons total system volume).
Similar threads
