Dosing nitrate or other nitrogen sources to reduce phospahte

[ReefKeeper64]

Tom, this is an intriguing approach and I wanted to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind.

Are you combining aspartic acid with the vodka/Vinegar into a single solution and then dosing everything together for your dosing regimen? Or are you dosing the aspartic acid separately? Are you first creating a liquid solution and then dosing that or are you adding AA to your system directly in powder form?

Are there any ammonia concerns when dosing aspartic acid?

I am reading more about this method now but any info you can provide is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[tmz]

I dose very little 3 grams( about half a tsps) in a gallon of ro water aerated with a small powerhead for a few hours. Then cups of the solution are poured into the 6 tanks directly in the evening. 1x per week.

No ammonia concerns.

 

[tmz]

Have you considered adding foods that have a high content of protien. Essentially more protein = more N.

 

[tmz]

Have you considered adding foods that have a high content of protien. Essentially more protein = more N.

Sorry hit the wrong button.

Yes, I feed heavily heavily by most standards. There are over 45 fish in the system . All foods are going to have PO4 and an organic carbon as well as N even those with high protein to phosphorous ratios. I feed a mixed diet. Likely the mix is somewhere near the redfield ratio in total C:N proportions. There were some analyses by Ron Shimek a few years back but been some assays a few years back comparining them .


What's the goal? Are you trying for better color? Better growth? Or just trying to balance PO4 and nitrates?

Any and all of that particularly in terms of the lps in terms of the aspartate. Keeping a little N in thewater does seem to help PO4 uptake when carbon dosing.

 

[pascal32]

I dosed potassium nitrate in the 120 with great results - the tank had always read very low in nitrate, slowly raised to about -2.5- the corals responded well and the phosphate seemed more stable and easier to manage. granted there was nothing wrong with the tank - couldn't leave well enough alone!

 

[tmz]

Not sure about it . Hard to gauge but I'm dosing very low amounts. Thanks for the info Pascal.

I like just a tinge of pink onl the nitrate test;seems to be enough.

 

[pascal32]

for those checking, if the salifert kit reads yellow, that means nitrate is really low - that is where I was for years.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I dose very little 3 grams( about half a tsps) in a gallon of ro water aerated with a small powerhead for a few hours. Then cups of the solution are poured into the 6 tanks directly in the evening. 1x per week.
QUOTE]


Thanks Tom, I am not making recommendations, nor are you, but for my system, I'm already seeing success dosing sodium nitrate and I'm quite confident that I'll be able switch over to L-aspartic acid and continue to maintain my nitrates at 2-5 ppm. This way, I'll get the other added benefits of the aspartic acid that you and others have mentioned.

If my math is correct, equivalent dosages for smaller tanks are as follows:

1/2 level tsp per 600 gal per week
1/4 level tsp per 300 gal per week
1/4 level tsp per 150 gal per two weeks
1/8 level tsp per 150 gal per week
1/8 level tsp per 75 gal per two weeks
1/8 level tsp per 37.5 gal per four weeks

My system is 150 gallons total so I have taken an empty 500ml water bottle container and filled it with distilled white vinegar. Then added 1/4 level tsp of L-Aspartic acid. Then warmed it luke-warm in the microwave for 30 seconds and shook t up. Most of the crystals dissolved fine.

This 500ml mixture should last two weeks in my system (500ml divided by 14 works out to a 35 ml per day dosage). I'll discontinue sodium nitrate and dose l-aspartic acid manually in conjunction with the bio-pellet regimen that I already have for carbon. This way I can keep an eye on nitrate levels and make any adjustments necessary. If I continue to see positive results using this form of nitrogen, I'll make the switch permanently and automate this with a doser.

Like yourself, I also think the vinegar solution is a better alternative over RO water due to the acidic content of vinegar and its low PH. Even though it is a carbon source itself, I've never seen a vinegar bottle with a bacteria bloom issue and I don't think added nitrate and some more carbon will make a difference. Mixing RO water and nitrate would result in a bacteria bloom eventually as I've seen that happen with sodium nitrate. Others have reported success mixing L-aspartic acid with vinegar with no mention of bacteria bloom issues so this solution makes sense for me.

 

[tmz]

Like yourself, I also think the vinegar solution is a better alternative over RO water due to the acidic content of vinegar and its low PH.

Honestly, I'm not sure of the reactions between acetic acid aspartate in a concentrated solution. Looks like they'll be ok but I may feel better about it after I research it a bit . For now, I dose vinegar and aspartate separately.

 

[shaannondavis21]

Hi Tom,
I would love to bring my sons by your place to see your tanks and learn. thanks, Shannon

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I reached out to Disc1 because of his background in chemistry and his reply is promising. When I heat the vinegar aspartic solution in a microwave for a minute, it gets warm and the grains dissolve without issue. Three days of dosing and all looks fine with good PE so far.


<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset">Originally Posted by ReefKeeper64
Hello Disc1,

I know you mentioned that you are a chemist on this forum so I wanted to ask your opinion on this idea I am experimenting with.

Today I created a solution of 1/4 tsp L-aspartic acid and 500ml white distilled vinegar. I am starting a regimen of dosing 35ml into my 150gal tank daily.

I believe that you mentioned on a posting that the combination might cause a bacterial bloom. In fact, I think you said that the vinegar might fuel the bacteria and be like a vegas casino buffet for bacterial growth or something like that. (pretty good one by the way!)

It will be easy enough to verify over the next couple of weeks if bacteria can live in such a high concentration of vinegar. I'll let you know if you are interested in the results on that one.

My real concern is the possibility of a chemical reaction of some kind that might break down or change the L-Aspartic acid into something else. Does this sound plausible to you?

If dosing in a 500ml bottle works short term, my thought was to eventually switch from the bio-pellets to vinegar dosing and adding just enough L-aspartic acid to keep nitrates at around 1-4 ppm. It would be extremely convenient if it works.

I respect your opinion and wanted to know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance!


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If you're staying with full strength vinegar then you shouldn't have any problem with bacteria. That problem comes in when people are trying to dilute it out into their ato.

I would have expected the aspartic acid would be hard to dissolve in vinegar. If you got it into solution then it should be stable.



<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________
David


Current Tank: Undergoing reconstruction...

 

[tmz]

David is very good on this stuff.
I thought it would be hard to dissolve the aspartate in the vinegar volume wise too ;I never dilute vinegar bellow the 5% acetic acid level to 95% water proportion found in ordinary white vinegar . Aspartic acid crystals have a solubility of 4.5 grams per liter of water ,btw. I takes a lot of mixing and waiting to get that much into solution though .Aspartic acid has an aciditidy of 3.9 PKa(acid dissassociation constant). Acedic acid has a PKa of around 5. The aciditidy is key to holding back bacterial growth in a dosing solution.

Wasn't sure if there'd be any other issue from the aspartic acid and vinegar reactions.

Freom Wikepedia:


Aspartic acid is, together with glutamic acid, classified as an acidic amino acid with a pK_a of 3.9, however in a peptide the pK_a is highly dependent on the local environment. A pK_a as high as 14 is not at all uncommon. Aspartate is pervasive in biosynthesis. As with all amino acids, the presence of acid protons depends on the residue's local chemical environment and the pH of the solution.


I have noted transient ph increases in my aquarium water after dosing the aspartate btw.



I'm going to keep them separate at least for now

 

[pfoxgrover]

Tom,
With respect to adding NO3. How potent by weight do you think the L-aspartic acid is compared to dry 99.3% NaNO3?

Right now I am doing 20 mil daily of a solution made from 1g NaNO3 in 1000ml RO/DI water to keep NO3 around 0.25 ~0.5 ppm.

I purchased some L-aspartic acid and was thinking of switching or supplementing with it.

I am running Biopellets and I'm not sure if the extra Carbon in the aspartic acid would throw things out of wack at all.

I appreciate any help you can offer.

-Paul

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I'm don't mind sharing my results even if they aren't necessarily what I was hoping for. I had been maintaining NO3 in a comfortable range of 2-5ppm using sodium nitrate for the past few months with good success (lowered PO4). I switched over to L-aspartic acid 5 days ago to test these discussions and my nitrate levels have gradually diminished down to 0 as of today. As I had mentioned previously, I created a 500ml vinegar solution mixed with 1/4 tsp. of L-aspartic acid. Heated the solution in the microwave until good and warm (90 seconds total). Then a brief shake provided a good mixture with no leftover crystals. I've gradually used up the full 500ml of the solution over the past several days to no avail. The dosage started at 35ml on day one, then 70ml day two, then 115ml, then 150ml. I'm not sure what the issue is but I'm looking for help.

-Perhaps the dosage is too low for my system? I am running bio-pellets.
-Perhaps the vinegar combined with the AA has an impact? I could switch to using RO as the solution.


SPS seems fine but I'm not sure what the problem is with the N03 reading. PO4 levels have risen as expected (was 0.05 and is now up to 0.13).

Interestingly enough, in testing both solutions for detectible N03 concentration, I found that the sodium nitrate solution is immediately detectible using salifert NO3 test kit. The L-aspartic acid solution is not at all detectible for N03 in an RO based solution. Technically the AA contains Nitrogen and I'm guessing that perhaps it has to be converted to Nitrate before it will be detectible? I'm not a chemist but would welcome comments from anyone who would understand why this might be the case with an undetectable N03 test result.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

<TABLE id=post571054 class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead>

#8

<!-- status icon and date -->

05/06/2002, 03:11 PM <!-- / status icon and date -->




</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2 style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"><!-- user info --><TABLE cellSpacing=6 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD noWrap>Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist




</TD><TD width="100%"></TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap>Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 52,068






</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD id=td_post_571054 class=alt1><!-- message, attachments, sig --><!-- message -->I'd suggest starting low. The drawback might be that the aspartic acid has nitrogen in it, and "it may end up partially as nitrate".

If it were me, I'd dose something like 1 g in a 100 gallon tank, and see what happens a week.




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[pfoxgrover]

Thanks Chris. That sounds like about 2x the dose that Tom is using.

Maybe I will start with 1/2 gram per 100 gallons once per week and continue the NaNO3 dosing at the current rate and see if there is a change in NO3.


-Paul

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Looking forward to hearing your results!

 

[RoscoPColtrane]

Bump! This is the thread i was looking for earlier. Tom it has been awhile, do you have any updates?

 

[tmz]

I tried aspartic acid for a month or so then tried sodium nitrate. Both jacked up a little nuisance alge and after a time,I decided it really wasn't helping PO4 reduction significantly in my tank. I increased the vodka dose by 10% and haven;t needed GFO since November( PO4 hlods at 0.02ppm to0.04 ppm)

 

[RoscoPColtrane]

Thanks for the update.