Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[tmz]

To focus on one component only and not consider the big picture, from my point of view, is anal retentive.

That must be painful. Not a very pleasant point of view either, I imagine. I suggest folks read the Borneman series in total including the measurements and draw they're own conclusions. That's why I cited it and avoided qouting a piece here and there Snippets can be misleading.

I can say without equivocation that skimmers , your topic of choice/hijack here ;not mine, enhance gas exchange even with lot's of ripple and agitated open water.

My system has over 50 square feet of open water ,heavily agitated at the surface. Nonetheless, turning on the skimmers with low CO2 air feed via a CO2 scrubbers attached to the air intake results in an increase in pH due to lower CO2 levles in the aqurium water, pH 8.0 to 8.15 diuranl sewing without it ; 8.15 to 8.25 with it. The gas exchange is very significant and obvious. Many others have similar results with fresh air intakes .

I have not used a wet and dry for aeration. As noted it earlier it might work if you don't mind the nitrate production and may be a good source for NO3 it in terms of relevance to this thread but it needs to be quite large to match a good sized skimmer in terms of gas exchange ,IMO.

 

[Aquarist007]

I'm shocked at the rapid reduction in biopellets since starting the vinegar, it seems that they have begun to reduce much more quickly..
i might increase the vinegar slightly when i mix a new batch of vin/cano3 this weekend..

I think that is more a factor of how hard they are agitated in the reactor then the vinegar.

 

[reefmutt]

Could be I guess.. I had been running them for almost two months before beginning the the vinegar, though.
I don't seem to remember them going down the same way..

 

[tmz]

Air exchange /bubbles vs surfaces

For those interested in a more detailed look at this :

....Air–sea gas exchanges take place through air–sea interface and through bubbles. Breaking waves are the major source of ocean surface bubbles. The gas partial pressures inside ocean surface bubbles is generally higher than the partial pressures of the same gases in the atmosphere. This is because hydrostatic pressure and surface curvature contribute significant extra pressure inside the gas bubbles. Gas transfer mediated by bubbles is more efficient than the transfer through the air–sea interface....


from:

Contribution to the global air–sea CO₂ exchange budget from asymmetric bubble-mediated gas transfer

By XIN ZHANG^*, Scripps Institution of Oceanography, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093-0213, USA​

(Manuscript received 6 May 2011; in final form 13 January 2012; published: 28 March 2012)

​

 

[tmz]

This is the link to the paper:

http://www.tellusb.net/index.php/tellusb/article/view/17260/html

 

[tmz]

Could be I guess.. I had been running them for almost two months before beginning the the vinegar, though.
I don't seem to remember them going down the same way..

Where and how are you dosing the vinegar?

 

[Aquarist007]

Air exchange /bubbles vs surfaces

For those interested in a more detailed look at this :

....Air"“sea gas exchanges take place through air"“sea interface and through bubbles. Breaking waves are the major source of ocean surface bubbles. The gas partial pressures inside ocean surface bubbles is generally higher than the partial pressures of the same gases in the atmosphere. This is because hydrostatic pressure and surface curvature contribute significant extra pressure inside the gas bubbles. Gas transfer mediated by bubbles is more efficient than the transfer through the air"“sea interface....


from:

Contribution to the global air"“sea CO₂ exchange budget from asymmetric bubble-mediated gas transfer

By XIN ZHANG^*, Scripps Institution of Oceanography, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093-0213, USA​

(Manuscript received 6 May 2011; in final form 13 January 2012; published: 28 March 2012)

​

Thanks Tom that really helps in other discussions on here regarding the covering of the surface of the tank. With LEDs sometimes you have no choice but I always maintain that if you have an excellent skimmer there is no problem with that

 

[reefmutt]

Where and how are you dosing the vinegar?

I mix the cano3 and vinegar with some RO water and add a half portion twice daily to the sump. My pellet reactor is also running in the sump. It is quite possibly picking up a little extra vinegar...

 

[reefmutt]

Just a quick side question concerning old live rock and its ability to store po4..
Does using muriatic acid as a bath, really liberate the po4 by dissolving the outer layer of the rock, or will the po4 be more deeply imbedded than the muriatic can get to?
I just have some great pieces of old (decade) live rock which I'm sure has been in a tank with pretty high levels of po4 for a long time. I'd like to use them in my new set up but the last thing I need in the tank is a wonderful po4 factory..

 

[tmz]

Thanks Tom that really helps in other discussions on here regarding the covering of the surface of the tank. With LEDs sometimes you have no choice but I always maintain that if you have an excellent skimmer there is no problem with that

If you leave a inch or two at the back of the tank covered with just screening for jumpers , plenty of air will circuclate anyway. .

 

[tmz]

I mix the cano3 and vinegar with some RO water and add a half portion twice daily to the sump. My pellet reactor is also running in the sump. It is quite possibly picking up a little extra vinegar...

A couple of things:

The vinegar may be making the water in the reactor acidic enough to effect the pellets.

Diluting vinegar to lower than 5% acetic acid may permit bacterial degradation of the acetate before you dose it. It's the acidity/low pH that keep the bacterial at bay. .

I'm not sure of the reaction CANO3 and vinegar

 

[herring_fish]

Air exchange /bubbles vs surfaces
For those interested in a more detailed look at this :

....Air"“sea gas exchanges take place through air"“sea interface and through bubbles. Breaking waves are the major source of ocean surface bubbles. The gas partial pressures inside ocean surface bubbles is generally higher than the partial pressures of the same gases in the atmosphere. This is because hydrostatic pressure and surface curvature contribute significant extra pressure inside the gas bubbles. Gas transfer mediated by bubbles is more efficient than the transfer through the air"“sea interface....

from:
Contribution to the global air"“sea CO2 exchange budget from asymmetric bubble-mediated gas transfer

By XIN ZHANG*, Scripps Institution of Oceanography, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92093-0213, USA
(Manuscript received 6 May 2011; in final form 13 January 2012; published: 28 March 2012)

Good article.
So what you are saying is that my old dump style Algal Turf Scrubber® (custom designed in 1993), facilitating dissolved oxygen levels that are very near the saturation point, is the best thing that you can use because the water has a one foot drop from the bucket into the tank? Hmmmm

Don't be hate'n. I'm only kidding. I wanted to add a little levity and I just couldn't resist.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just a quick side question concerning old live rock and its ability to store po4..
Does using muriatic acid as a bath, really liberate the po4 by dissolving the outer layer of the rock, or will the po4 be more deeply imbedded than the muriatic can get to?
I just have some great pieces of old (decade) live rock which I'm sure has been in a tank with pretty high levels of po4 for a long time. I'd like to use them in my new set up but the last thing I need in the tank is a wonderful po4 factory..

It can be both.

If it came from elevated phosphate in an aquarium, the acid will remove it.

If it was present when the rock was formed and is all through it, acid won't help remove what is inside.

That said, if it is deep inside and doesn't come out during an acid rinse, it won't come out later in the tank, at least not rapidly.

 

[tmz]

Good article.
So what you are saying is that my old dump style Algal Turf Scrubber® (custom designed in 1993), facilitating dissolved oxygen levels that are very near the saturation point, is the best thing that you can use because the water has a one foot drop from the bucket into the tank? Hmmmm

Don't be hate'n. I'm only kidding. I wanted to add a little levity and I just couldn't resist.

Only if you assume earth gravity works in turf scrubbers given their more mystical powers ;adding gravitons could help. I'd run the water through a wet and dry first and then pass it through a skimmer and/or GAC after. :lol2:


I think waterfalls help and the oxygen production from the turf helps O2 levels; not sure about what's the best . The methods discussed are complimentary,IMO. The water out from my skimmers drops about 18 inches from the top of the pipe.btw .

Surge is a nice way to run an algae turf scrubber,imo;I've never tried it personally though. Was it hard to build?

 

[tmz]

Just a quick side question concerning old live rock and its ability to store po4..
Does using muriatic acid as a bath, really liberate the po4 by dissolving the outer layer of the rock, or will the po4 be more deeply imbedded than the muriatic can get to?
I just have some great pieces of old (decade) live rock which I'm sure has been in a tank with pretty high levels of po4 for a long time. I'd like to use them in my new set up but the last thing I need in the tank is a wonderful po4 factory..

I agree with Randy's reply.

I would only add that as an alternative , you may want to consider simply curing that rock in low PO4 water,if PO4 is your only concern with the old rock and not metals for example.
I'd put it in ro water , salt water if there is life to preserve;check the PO4 level and again after a few days . If it leached PO4 ,I'd strip the curing water of PO4 with lanthanum chloride or gfo and keep it at very low to zero PO4 readings until it stopped leaching. This would avoid stripping off the top layer and exposing a fresh surface layer of rock.

 

[herring_fish]

"Was it hard to build?"

No. It wasn't that bad. Having an external pivot point helps. That way, it could be tuned after installation. I did need access to a band saw though. You need a pretty clean cut so that the acrylic glue works well. My avatar is a CAD rendering of a splash from the original dump bucket with a 2 inch drop but that was a little anemic for my taste.

This is a video of it as I was doing "œrough in" re-installing and testing it on a second tank. There are a few wires hanging around that needed to be moved. I moved it up and down until I got the amount of splash sound that I wanted when the hood lid is CLOSED. I am putting it on my new 180 as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoKX8AjEbI

 

[Bilk]

"Was it hard to build?"

No. It wasn't that bad. Having an external pivot point helps. That way, it could be tuned after installation. I did need access to a band saw though. You need a pretty clean cut so that the acrylic glue works well. My avatar is a CAD rendering of a splash from the original dump bucket with a 2 inch drop but that was a little anemic for my taste.

This is a video of it as I was doing "œrough in" re-installing and testing it on a second tank. There are a few wires hanging around that needed to be moved. I moved it up and down until I got the amount of splash sound that I wanted when the hood lid is CLOSED. I am putting it on my new 180 as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoKX8AjEbI

Very nice work, though guests must think someone's in the loo with a problem Just kidding. Actually if you could direct the flow out across the tank, it would really make a nice surge action. How often does it, uhumm, flush?

 

[sabbath]

Very nice work, though guests must think someone's in the loo with a problem Just kidding. Actually if you could direct the flow out across the tank, it would really make a nice surge action. How often does it, uhumm, flush?

Thats what I was thinking too. Somehow making it create a nice wave, that would help keep the stuff on the bottom from settling.

 

[herring_fish]

It "¦well "¦dumps, approximately every 30 second although I bought an adjustable pond pump that I got from Lowe's because my power head went out on me. There is a shut-off plate that lets me adjust the flow so it can be from every 10 or 15 seconds to any longer period. It's just a matter of taste.

"œActually if you could direct the flow out across the tank, it would really make a nice surge action."

I designed what I thought would work but version one let me down. I may install this but it will only direct the water a little.

Really, where water motion inside the display tank is concerned, dump buckets will not get the job done. They are mostly for looks and many people wouldn't want one anyway but I like it. If the bucket was much bigger, then you would have to let the water line fall to a point to where you could see it. Otherwise it would over flow.

I have designed a high volume non-traumatic pump that I think will work well but I have way too many other things to do before I get to that. Even a surging NTP would not stop settling on the bottom.

 

[reefmutt]

Tom and Randy, thanks for your responses re my old live rock. It was once great live rock so the po4 is probably only skin deep. I'll have to consider which way to go on ridding the rock of po4.
As for my pellets going down.. Absolutely the vinegar is going through the reactor. I will add it elsewhere in the system..
I think it was Glennf who mentioned he had mixed vinegar and cano3 without problem and with good effect. I only mix a weeks worth of additive.. I'm not sure if that is long enough for bacterial degradation.
Thanks again!