Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[herring_fish]

Great work with the experiment.
Goes to show, there isn't just using ATS to extract nutrients out of water.
Just getting the bacteria to do the work - while keeping redfield ratio correct is the key to successful reef keeping. :wildone:

I almost completely agree! Using bacteria to get rid of excess nutrients is A VERY GOOD WAY to get it done. I have said that ever since I have been on here.

There are a lot of VERY GOOD WAYS to reduce excess nutrients. I am not here to promote any form of ATS. There are several methods of getting this done and I have try most of them and you know what …they almost all work and work well, including several methods of promoting the use of bacteria to get it done.

The only reason that I am here is because nitrate limitation can also interfere with good algae production and export of nutrients which is another VERY GOOD WAY to reduce excess nutrients. I don’t think that it is best. I think that it is best for me.

Please remember this thread is called Only Dosing Nitrates to reduce Phosphate.
In his first post 2hands asked, in part,
”If my nitrates are near non-detectable can I dose some nitrate in small concentrations to help bacteria” AND “algae reduce phosphate?”
The discussion has morph to almost exclusively talking about bacteria and that’s great where I am concerned.

I originally came here because I was nitrate limited but didn’t know it. I dosed and 2hands was right. My algae started growing again.

Anyway This is not the first thread to mention the Redfield ratio but I have loved to mostly tag along to learn lots of things, whether they relate to algae or not.

I am also learning more about bacteria in general and that is interesting to me because it is a great food source for corals.

All that being said, when I get all of my files together, I will post them only because I was asked …and because I’m proud of my little dump bucket.

 

[tmz]

I don't see how or why a sand bed would produce nitrate; unless of course there was significant organic decay producing both nitrogen and soluble reactive phosphate as might occur in an old clogged bed that was not processing much. If anything a weel funtioning sand bed should skew towards higher nitrate reduction vs PO4 given anaerobic nitrate reduction that occurs there notwithstanding any PO4 that might bind to newer sand.

I thought about using clean bioballs in a wet and dry filter. It would add nitrate but at the expense of any ammonia/ammonium there. Ammonia/ammonium has been identified as a preferred nitrogen source for the bacteria you are trying to grow, when dosing organic carbon btw. So, converting the N from NH3 or NH4 to make more NO2 and NO3 wouldn't enhance nitrogen or the growth of these bacteria or their uptake of soluble reactive phosphate,IMO.

The Redfield ratio is an enmasse measure of plankton. It highlights the fact that organisms use carbon ,nitrogen(not nitrate per se) and phosphorous in proportions based on mean averages .Specific ratios for specific organisms in specific environments vary as do exit levels particularly when nitrate is reduced to N and N2 or PO4 is sunk. So, it really has no specific relevance for a reef tank beyond a general reference to the proportions and as a reminder of the potential for the law of the minimum to play a role in a particular tank .

Keeping carbon ,nitrogen and soluble reactive phosphate at an optimal balance for low nutrients is a variable condition from one tank to another ,IMO.

 

[reefmutt]

Tom, what you say about sand beds is my experience, as well..
The bioball issue you describe makes perfect sense, as well.. I won't try it!

 

[herring_fish]

OK I'm really starting the hijack now.

These are some of the ATS’s that Dr. Adey suggested that worked best because of the agitation and turbulence that they produce. Good turbulence increases effectiveness by 50% and greatly reduces clumping which can cause yellowing at the root and die off. They are the most efficient per square inch of lit screen. They may not be the smallest and the splash may not be your cup of tea. I'm not saying they are the best ATS's but 30 year of scientific research says that they are pretty good.

This is my first version. It worked very well but I moved on the version 2 below.

This is a 3-D PDF of version one. It is NOT to scale but you can rotate it around to see how I laid it out.

Note: Open these in a session of Abode Reader for full features. Click on the link and it will open in your web browser but you will not be able to rotate the model. Look on the right side at the top. There are 5 icons there. The one in the middle is for downloading the file. Down load it where you can find it. If you already have Adobe Reader then you can open it right away. If you don't have it, go to the Adobe web site and down load it for free. Be sure to look at the other pages that are attached for more information. Turning the background color to gray will make it easier to see. There is a quickly drawing in version two but you can also go to >Tools>Analysis>Measure.


http://asaherring.com/reef/hardware/DumpBucketTriangle.pdf

This is a 3-D PDF of version 2.

http://asaherring.com/reef/hardware/DumpBucket.pdf

Now I return this thread to you and sorry for the hijack. If you're old, you will remember this.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/4b2iOY2yVRg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[tmz]

If you're old, you will remember this.:lol:

I'm too old to remember much at all.Thankyou for the information

 

[CapnReefer]

If you use a low-phosphate food, won't it just produce more nitrate than phosphate?
Maybe a dumb question.

 

[tmz]

Depends on how much nitrogen and phosphorus are used by organisms in the tank. Generally, foods with a reasonable phosphate to protein ratio are preferred though it's hared to tell how much phosphate is actually in any particular food . This post from another thread by Randy H. Farley has more :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16619524&postcount=2

 

[reefmutt]

Herring fish, I love those detailed specs for the ats.. If I had the space and the wife's blessing (which would be never) I'd set one up!
Ok. Update:
Since my last nutrient tests and posted results, I have kept my dose exactly the same. Today's results gave me an n of 3ppm and p of somewhere around .02. Maybe less but definitely not more.
I will reduce the cano3 in my mix very slightly because there seems to be a slight trend upwards for n.
I'd say that for me, with all in one pellets, a solid skimmer but no macro algae (at the moment- I will probably add some when my display tank comes back) as well as a little nitrate added to my system, I have conquered (or controlled) my phosphate problem!

 

[Aquarist007]

Herring fish, I love those detailed specs for the ats.. If I had the space and the wife's blessing (which would be never) I'd set one up!
Ok. Update:
Since my last nutrient tests and posted results, I have kept my dose exactly the same. Today's results gave me an n of 3ppm and p of somewhere around .02. Maybe less but definitely not more.
I will reduce the cano3 in my mix very slightly because there seems to be a slight trend upwards for n.
I'd say that for me, with all in one pellets, a solid skimmer but no macro algae (at the moment- I will probably add some when my display tank comes back) as well as a little nitrate added to my system, I have conquered (or controlled) my phosphate problem!

Great results Matt. Glad to hear it :

 

[Aquarist007]

Great results Matt. Glad to hear it

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I often read about trapped detritus causing nitrates (and possibly phosphates). In the first compartment of my sump into which water from the main tank is drained, there are several fist size rocks and a skimmer. The rocks collect a lot of detritus. However, measurable nitrates in my tank have been less than 0.2 ppm (Salifert). In fact, I stopped clearing any sediment/detritus from my sump altogether as I can see no detrimental effect on water quality. Perhaps detritus is quickly consumed by pods/amphipods, etc. and all I can see is the remaining silt, which may not not detrimental.

 

[tmz]

I also have some detritus buildups which mineralize in my cryptic fuges and some sump areas . It doesn't seem to do any harm as it degrades there; however, if it builds in the display it fuels cyano ,nuisance algae and seems to be harmful to corals positioned near it,IME.

 

[Boom]

I also have some detritus buildups which mineralize in my cryptic fuges and some sump areas . It doesn't seem to do any harm as it degrades there; however, if it builds in the display it fuels cyano ,nuisance algae and seems to be harmful to corals positioned near it,IME.

We've been talking about detritus lately on this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2451819

 

[Boom]

Seems it's innocuous in the dark or away from surfaces where it can settle and feed algae or cyano on contact.

 

[tmz]

It does release nutrients as it degrades from hydrolysis and microbial activity occurring in a cascade with each digestion reducing the nutrient value of the remaining detritus , ultimately leaving refractory mineralized remnants which are of little consequence.
I think when the degradation activity occurs and it's by products go into the watere in lighted areas they feed nuisance algae and cyano as noted but some of that activity and it's by products may disturb corals if it occurs in close proximity to accumulateddetritus ,IME. So, I don't worry about it in the sump or cryptic refugia since it may be of use to many animals but do remove it from display tanks and grow out tanks, via brisk flow and/or occasional siphoning. where fresh detritus may be harmful to it's neighbors.

 

[herring_fish]

It does release nutrients as it degrades from hydrolysis and microbial activity occurring in a cascade with each digestion reducing the nutrient value of the remaining detritus , ultimately leaving refractory mineralized remnants which are of little consequence.
....

I agree. This is a little anecdotal observation of mine from the past. I was talking about a jaubert style sand bed with open plenum bottom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herring_fish
....I lowered the front of the bed so that it looked better against the front glass. Critters are suppose to inhabit the top, aerobic zone but nothing gets passed the two screens into the anaerobic zone and the stagnant zones.

I wanted to see into the plenum so before I installed anything, I encased a plasticized magnet in epoxy and placed it on the bottom piece of glass in the tank. The stand that I had, allowed me to look up through the bottom of the tank. In about a month a layer of detritus formed on the bottom glass. In a few months, I put another magnet up to the first one and was able to slowly and carefully drag it around through the sediment. I could see that it was very uniform at about 1/4 inch thick. I only did this one or two more times over 8 years or so. It wasn't too exciting.


When I tore the tank down, I was very careful, like a paleontologist. When I got through the sand beds I looked at the bottom sediment and there was that same depth of 1/4 inch of detritus that formed in the first few months.

It appeared to me that something processed this stuff. The screens are there to keep out critters and there weren't any dead skeletons, shells or any other forms of remains. This led me to think that the last vestiges of detritus must have been falling to the bottom slowly and bacteria was (...well not eating it but) processing it away. The ATS must have been the eventual vehicle for export of detritus byproducts that come from different stages of decomposition.

In nature, on dry land, fecal excrement is not the last stage of nutrient breakdown. Otherwise, we would be buried in it. It is broken down whether it is in the soil or sitting on the sidewalk. There is always something that lives off of what that last organism left behind. To some degree, this can be done inside of a closed reef system, although removal is far better where possible!!! Never the less, there is a complex food chain going up the latter before food enters a fish's gut. Likewise, there is a complex and little understood chain of organisms that process that food after it leaves the gut. "Dust to dust" and all that?....

.....I would think that whatever is deposited at the bottom was pretty close to inert....

 

[chema]

Herring fish, I love those detailed specs for the ats.. If I had the space and the wife's blessing (which would be never) I'd set one up!
Ok. Update:
Since my last nutrient tests and posted results, I have kept my dose exactly the same. Today's results gave me an n of 3ppm and p of somewhere around .02. Maybe less but definitely not more.
I will reduce the cano3 in my mix very slightly because there seems to be a slight trend upwards for n.
I'd say that for me, with all in one pellets, a solid skimmer but no macro algae (at the moment- I will probably add some when my display tank comes back) as well as a little nitrate added to my system, I have conquered (or controlled) my phosphate problem!

Therefore, would you say that, in your tank, a concentration of around 3 ppm nitrates is optimal to keep phosphates at less than 0,1 ppm?

 

[reefmutt]

I'm not sure it is optimal, but it is definitely working. I would think that wether it was a little higher or lower, I would have the same effect on p.
Recently, I changed my formula but tried to keep the overall carb addition. I'm using a mix of 100ml rice vinegar (4% acetic acid, 10 ml vodka and 10 drops of honey with 5 scoops of cano3) mixed into an additional 400 ml ro water. I still dose 35 ml twice daily. I did this with the assumption that I would be fostering multiple strains of bacteria and the assumption that multiple strains is somehow better for the system...... (Comments welcome!)
This new formula has pretty much kept the status quo, but n seems to have dropped closer to 2 ppm and p staying at close to .02. After multiple tests getting the same p result in my Elos test kit and comparing it to my ulr checker, I feel that .02 and not lower is more accurate than what I said before (.02 or lower)
Since I'm blabbing, now, I'll also mention that for the first month or so of additions, my skimmer was producing more skimmate than it has for the last couple of weeks. Recently, I've noticed a drop in accumulation. Nutrient levels are staying stable, however.
When I finally get my display up, I do plan to add some remote sand beds and cheato. This will certainly require a modification of my recipe, but as it stands, at the moment, levels are very stable.

 

[discos]

I have read this very interesting topic for a number of times and it's my turn to share my experience with you. My tank is SPS only, medium load, 220g/850lt and is filtered with skimmer, chaeto and biopellets.

I used to use gfo in a reactor for all the years before, and for the last 4 months I am using the 250ml biopellets (Most probably you will find small the quantity but personally I consider biopellets too potent for the quantity the companies suggest and so far my results are great). From the moment the biopellets kicks in, I start controlling po4 with nitrate dose. I am using kno3 but I also have nano3 just in case.

When I start dosing i had around 2 ppm no3 and po4 virtually 0. The first month I was dosing 1ppm no3 per week in 2 doses by hand. I noticed in the end a slight rise of po4 around 0,03 and no3 1. After the first month i increased the dose to 1,5ppm per week and the results are so far show a stability in the 0,03 region. My nitrate two days after the dosing of 0,5ppm are 0,5ppm and then I dose and going to 1ppm. Tests are salifert nitrate and hanna checker for po4.

One of the things I first noticed was the slight increased skimmer activity the next day I was was dosing. The way the aquarium is working now, normally I should have 0 no3, something I do not wish but it's the biopellets signature, so my target is 0,5-1 no3 and po4 at 0,01 to 0,02 max. I am in the process of getting there, I hope things to remain under control and in the future. I could play with a bigger dose but I want to do things slowly, to understand the micro changes better.

Such a great subject, we are involved with an amazing hobby and I hope more people to share their experience with us. In the months to come I will report the process of this technique.

 

[Fraxinus]

Very interesting. I've given this a try. I have a Reefer 250 w about 200L of water in the system. It's a very new system: 6 months old. No skimmer; I run a duplex refugium in the skimmer compartment. At the time I started dosing sodium nitrate I was having a red cyano problem. 0 nitrates and .05 - .15 PO4 (w/Hanna ULR & math conversion in ApexFusion). I've been dosing with ormet's formula of 40 grams soduim nitrate in 500mL water for my stock solution. I add 1 ml of this solution daily which equates to .25ppm daily dosage to my system. Right before my first dose, my PO4 reading was .12. Two days later it was .02. Four weeks later and my PO4 readings always stay between .02 & .05. My red cyano is slowly going away. My nitrate reading with red sea test kit is .25 - .5 i think. Truthfully, I struggle to read the results. But, I can at least tell there is detectable N now, before there was not. My true red dragon acro and monti cap color has improved quite noticeably. Most other corals in my tank had pretty good color before. I'm going to start increasing my dosage slowly over time to see how it goes; I'll likely never let it get above 2ppm. I'll post back in the future with updates.