Dosing Vodka/Sugar = more food for filter feeders?

[Western_reefer]

I was told that you can't dose Vodka without a skimmer, I asked why? because the skimmer has to remove all the bacteria that eats the nitrates, ect. Wellll, what if you add Vodka without a skimmer? There will be bacteria in the water column and won't filter feeders benefit from it? Such as Gorgonians, Carnation, Scallops, Feather Starfish, Chili coral, ect, ect?? Or, if you don't have vodka, you can add Sugar instead of Vodka?

 

[uhuru]

I don't dose vodka at all and get plenty of bacterial growth. I suppose you could do it to a very moderate extent. I wouldn't be nearly as aggressive as if I had a skimmer. The bacteria can quickly overwhelm your system and suffocate your livestock.

 

[Western_reefer]

I don't dose vodka at all and get plenty of bacterial growth. I suppose you could do it to a very moderate extent. I wouldn't be nearly as aggressive as if I had a skimmer. The bacteria can quickly overwhelm your system and suffocate your livestock.

Yeah, going to read up on sugar, and just dose a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit.

 

[NeverlosT]

read up on vitamin C dosing, kind of the same effect as vodka dosing with added benefits!

 

[ourmanflint]

I've been doing this for nearly six weeks now, and the only side effects are sparkling clear water! I use a colony of royal sea squirts to take out the extra bacteria produced, and they are looking radiant, infact they grow quite quickly now. I only dose 0.4ml per day in my 90 gal though, I will start upping the dose today as I now have a skimmer installed on standby.

 

[Greg 45]

What is the benefit of the vit c dosing

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I would be very careful about dosing a carbon source without a skimmer. Although theoretically some of the filter feeders will consume the excess bacteria (to my knowledge this has not been proven conclusively in the aquarium), you're still going to have a problem with waste accumulation and expanding bacterial growth. Corals, as with most organisms, will not make use of 100% of the food they eat. Most of it will leave as waste, which will feed more bacteria. Unless you have a way to remove the excess bacteria from the tank, I think you're going to have a real problem down the line.

 

[Western_reefer]

I've been doing this for nearly six weeks now, and the only side effects are sparkling clear water! I use a colony of royal sea squirts to take out the extra bacteria produced, and they are looking radiant, infact they grow quite quickly now. I only dose 0.4ml per day in my 90 gal though, I will start upping the dose today as I now have a skimmer installed on standby.

Do you have any pictures of the royal sea squirts?

 

[Western_reefer]

I would be very careful about dosing a carbon source without a skimmer. Although theoretically some of the filter feeders will consume the excess bacteria (to my knowledge this has not been proven conclusively in the aquarium), you're still going to have a problem with waste accumulation and expanding bacterial growth. Corals, as with most organisms, will not make use of 100% of the food they eat. Most of it will leave as waste, which will feed more bacteria. Unless you have a way to remove the excess bacteria from the tank, I think you're going to have a real problem down the line.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[ourmanflint]

I would be very careful about dosing a carbon source without a skimmer. Although theoretically some of the filter feeders will consume the excess bacteria (to my knowledge this has not been proven conclusively in the aquarium), you're still going to have a problem with waste accumulation and expanding bacterial growth. Corals, as with most organisms, will not make use of 100% of the food they eat. Most of it will leave as waste, which will feed more bacteria. Unless you have a way to remove the excess bacteria from the tank, I think you're going to have a real problem down the line.

I think you have to be careful sure, but I saw zero negative effects after six weeks of this regime in a 4x2x2 with lots of fish as well. The only filtration the tank gets is a 2x1x1.5 MM sump with lots of algae and about 60kg live rock. If a system is allowed to slowly evolve and build up the necessary macro and micro fauna needed to maintain such tanks, then really amazing systems can develop that are inherently much more stable than those run heavily with skimmers.
Tunicates are formidable filter filterers of water and should not be underestimated either, I reckon mine between them turnover my systems volume at least 20x per day, and every pass of water, they can successfully remove 25% of all the bacteria in it. I'm not going to say that I would recommend this approach either, as it just happens to be successful in my system, and there are a lot more things to learn about natural filtering solutions. I must admit though when I first read of ULNS systems my first thoughts were along the lines of they were an ideal part of a synthetic food chaon to support a much larger variety of creatures than conventional skimmed only systems. These are the tunicates I have.

 

[Western_reefer]

I think you have to be careful sure, but I saw zero negative effects after six weeks of this regime in a 4x2x2 with lots of fish as well. The only filtration the tank gets is a 2x1x1.5 MM sump with lots of algae and about 60kg live rock. If a system is allowed to slowly evolve and build up the necessary macro and micro fauna needed to maintain such tanks, then really amazing systems can develop that are inherently much more stable than those run heavily with skimmers.
Tunicates are formidable filter filterers of water and should not be underestimated either, I reckon mine between them turnover my systems volume at least 20x per day, and every pass of water, they can successfully remove 25% of all the bacteria in it. I'm not going to say that I would recommend this approach either, as it just happens to be successful in my system, and there are a lot more things to learn about natural filtering solutions. I must admit though when I first read of ULNS systems my first thoughts were along the lines of they were an ideal part of a synthetic food chaon to support a much larger variety of creatures than conventional skimmed only systems. These are the tunicates I have.

Wow! Those are some awesome tunicates!! Where and how much did you get them for if you don't mind me asking?

 

[suta4242]

How long have you had the squirts?

I was setting up an acclimation tank for some delicate fish that ate rich invert growth such as small tunicates and sponges in the wild. So I wanted them to feel at home in this tank for several months before reaching the display. I carbon dosed the tank (mainly vinegar). Small tunicates & sponges that came in on bits of rock grew and multiplied exponentially. Unfortunately algae got a foothold too.

Then I turned off the lights, allowing the invert growth to dominate, while the algae died. Once the fish were added, they gradually cleaned up most of the tunicates, sponges, fanworms etc.. But when I added a good protein skimmmer to this tank what remained of the tunicates & sponges atrophied. Very little was left.

 

[10001110101]

I would be very careful about dosing a carbon source without a skimmer. Although theoretically some of the filter feeders will consume the excess bacteria (to my knowledge this has not been proven conclusively in the aquarium), you're still going to have a problem with waste accumulation and expanding bacterial growth. Corals, as with most organisms, will not make use of 100% of the food they eat. Most of it will leave as waste, which will feed more bacteria. Unless you have a way to remove the excess bacteria from the tank, I think you're going to have a real problem down the line.

Not trying to flame, but this certainly has been proven.

Actually, a nice little article found here, demonstrates how much less a protein skimmer actually does in the overall removal of suspended filter foods such as bacteria, plankton, etc... than is commonly believed.

Filter feeding animals in your aquarium will readily gobble up the extra protein, including plankton and any feather dusters/clams/tube worms/etc you have on your live rock.

Corals of course as well will benefit significantly, many of which would not thrive or even survive without such a food source a la goniopora, tunicates, mussels, gorgonians, without actively culturing filter foods (including bacteria, and other mircroscopic life that eat the bacteria) in the water column.

Bacteria also help form marine snow when they combine with coral mucus and plankton, copepods et al.

 

[suta4242]

Oxygen depletion is a bigger risk if you're carbon dosing without a skimmer IMO. In the case I outlined above, I greatly reduced the dosage before the fish were added and concede I wouldn't have tried this in my DT.

And while I was impressed with the rampant growth & diversity of miniature tunicates and sponges, nutrient levels in this tank would have impeded growth in many stony corals (had they been there).

Just my 2c...

 

[herring_fish]

Carbon

Carbon

A skimmer gets the food out of the water column before it brakes down but of course, none are 100% effective. Vodka is a good way to lower nutrient levels that build up in most skimmed systems. Bacteria as a food source that is a positive side benefited of the cleaning. A scrubber works on the broken down nutrients, removing them as soon as they appear. One think that I have to remind myself of, all the time, is that if my nutrients are already low, why do I want to try add some think that will compete with the scrubber that is doing a fine job just because it is cool.

I tried vodka but it competed with my algae scrubber, depressing its growth. The bacteria consumed the nutrients to a point where they were too low for good algal growth. I did get the white cloud in the water that indicates a good bacteria bloom but that also indicates that you may be getting close to having too little oxygen in the water column. A crash of a tank can be tragic. Scrubbers normally give you the highest dissolved oxygen levels possible but a scrubber that is depressed isn't breathing at its full potential so be careful.

Sugar might be a better way to go. I have used different form of it and find it pretty safe. Adding sugar, vinegar or vodka is still putting something in the tank so that the bacteria can feed on it and multiply. If you buy bottled bacteria, you put in what you want and see the primary response, not a two tiered secondary response.

If you are just looking for bacterial growth, why don't you just use Reef Bugs? They are easy to use and won't be as likely to over shoot growth and consume too much oxygen. Purportedly, there is a wide spectrum of micro critters in the stuff, not just bacteria so your feeders would have a bigger variety of thinks to choose from.

The question that I had was, is there really anything in that powder? One person said to let it stand in a glass for a while and if the bacteria is alive, the concoction will really start to stink and if it doesn't, then it isn't really growing much of anything. It is true that if you buy live bacteria and smell the bottle, it is putrid but I don't think that the smell test is a good one.

When I over dose the bugs, I start to see a pure white, fine hair like growth on my water inlets. That is bacteria that you can see. Instead of white water, I get white hair that will go away if I back off...but normally I don't.

Anyway filter feeders like it and I think that it is a lot safer, whether you have a skimmer or not.