Dropped LED to go back to MH for the second time :/

[FoothillCorals]

Don't sweat this.

I am starting to fully understand why the best of the best reefers disappear from the internet altogether except to sell their wonderful frags for a mint a few times a year and maybe type up a TOTM article every few years. They have years and years of PERSONAL experience that they try and share with folks, yet get crushed by those with no/less experience who are keyboard warriors that lack any kind of nuance and details about the hobby and talk about what they have in their own homes and what they have read about from others and have never fully experienced what they are arguing against. They finally figure out that they don't need the headache of swimming upstream against the bandwagoners and folks who covet their tank success, but not their advice on how they got there.

Amen brother

 

[kevensquint]

I serve a handful of clients as well as a local coral warehouse ( distributor) and I see and work with many, many more systems on a weekly basis other than my own. So my statement is in fact based on not only my own tanks but many other s as well. I did say softies and LPS seem to really like LED. That is what I see first hand. That said, MH or T5 is not limited to certain corals or specific adjustments. Is a great general overall proven successfull light.
All that said, as just previously mentioned, I'm old and busy in this hobby. I don't wish to argue with potentially teenagers owning 2 frags and a years of experience. No offence to solid hobbyists, but no way to know who is who.

 

[cobra2326]

Here's a quote from Sahin when he switched from T5 to LEDs. I think it's a good perspective:

In terms of light coverage, you need lots of units to get same coverage as T5.

My tank is practically 95% SPS and 90% of that is acropora. Hence I have noticed subtle changes in some of my acros that I'm not happy about.
What I wasnt happy about was for example, my Red Planet: its no way as red as before. It didnt brown out...rather it looks like a purplely red planet. Maybe its a spectrum thing I dont know. The frag I gave to my buddy turned the same kind of colour in his tank. Its like a kind of purple red rather than the more red tone I had under T5's.

The other coral with significant change is my "rainbow" granulosa...it had a green base, changing to a sky blue towards the tips with a purple tip face. Its turned largely green. Lost the sky blue colour completely. I'd adjust the spectrum and measured the PAR levels but couldnt get the sky blue colour back.

Another acro with pink corallite edges and red polyps lost the red polyps and the pink corallites.

For a mixed reef or a reefkeeper who is going new into the hobby and or newly with SPS isnt probably going to notice these subtle differences...and they will rightly say, yeah sure LEDs/Radions are fine for acros...and they are...but IMO they dont pull that extra bit of colour and some acros dont look as nice. They could be coloured nicely, but for me acros that had more than two or more colours have morphed into single or double colours.

Now I am being very critical here, but keeping a tank full of acros I can notice the changes.

The other thing I didnt like was how dim the Radions look...I couldnt get used to the dimmer look...they look dim, but the PAR is there. If I turned them up to how bright my corals looked under my T5's, the PAR levels went up crazy...

...Which tells me the light is VERY directional and pointing largely down. There isnt as much scatter as there is with T5's or MH in a reflector.

What confirmed my above observation was the top facing tissue have nice colour, but the sides and anything in shadow has turned pale. With my T5's I didnt have this issue.

I think had I went with a couple of Radions and T5 as supplemental, I wouldnt be changing anything right now....

 

[jda]

Experiences like these are all over the place with SPS and LED if you actually look to learn.. and not just look. Most folks don't see what is in front of them, or discount the experiences of an experienced guy like Sahin because they just don't want to believe that what they thought or bought could be wrong. Perspective truly is a skill. Only the elite can really get into the nuance and details of life, but it matters so much.

Dr. Joshi has a good writeup of LEDs over his mixed reef... basically, no electrical savings, color not as good, more heater costs, less chiller costs, some acros suffering, some fine. It gets discounted by the "bros" as well.

tdb320reef has a few very long threads about this and also some of the challenges of lighting a large SPS tank.

Off Topic: Cobra... can you please PM me where you got that snippet from Sahin. I would like to read more of that thread and see the reactions and stuff.

 

[kevensquint]

http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/kevensjase/media/Mobile%20Uploads/PhotoGrid_1425079867434_zpsvwtt6sux.jpg.html]

[/URL][/IMG]

-Sorry I saw my pic of 1 year of growth in my old 75 never posted. Its 2x 250W MH and some ATI blue +'S. This tank never used LED. Nevertheless I went back and tried again with Kessils/T5 to my disappointement. Some of the corals where moved around during the year, but no new pieces where added. so it is an honest progress pic.

 

[madweazl]

* your right that was not a fair way to put it. Same thing but worded more diplomatically.

" I honestly believe thanks to years of experience MH and or T5 is a better choice all around for every hobbyist to be very successful. And as for myself I want to put my experience out there in hopes others consider MH over LED so all those that enjoy those lights including myself can continue to use them. "
As for the relatively low PAR at 30-40% being able to bleach. Your neglecting the fact that Led are pure spectrums so 150 PAR of blue LED might be 150 PAR of 450nm. So the photosynthetic efficiency of that 150 PAR is much higher than say a Radium MH at 150 PAR. Which will have a strong 450nm peak, but other wavelengths as well. My 75 using MH/T5 from day 1 to day 365.

With the Kessil, was there a reason you stuck to the mostly blue spectrum vice dialing in more color to better match the output of the MH since that is what you ultimately switched to? You also mentioned 160(g?) but used two Kessils; what were the dimensions of the tank? I have two over the standard 75g (48x18) and wish I'd done three from the beginning but I hadn't planned on going SPS dominant at the time. I'm considering the addition of two 48" T5s to help cover that oversight.

 

[kevensquint]

I have a spectrometer and PAR meter. The "other" colors are B.S. for a LED light to work as everyone wants it would need many more wavelengths bunched together as close as possible to make the light homogeneous. If I remembered the Kessils have 3 or 4.
2 or 3 wavelengths in the UV/blue and just whites. Whites do not seem to make SPS happy. It's just not the same as a white light made up from hundreds of wavelengths.

 

[madweazl]

I have a spectrometer and PAR meter. The "other" colors are B.S. for a LED light to work as everyone wants it would need many more wavelengths bunched together as close as possible to make the light homogeneous. If I remembered the Kessils have 3 or 4.
2 or 3 wavelengths in the UV/blue and just whites. Whites do not seem to make SPS happy. It's just not the same as a white light made up from hundreds of wavelengths.

They have visible cyan, greens, and reds (easier to catch at the outer perimeter of the light) as you increase color; how much is present I don't know. I don't know that there are any strictly "white" lights in the fixture.

 

[kevensquint]

When a LED has a diode of red or green or any wavelength. You will see a peak in the spectral plot. More diodes of X wavelength the higher the peak. The only peaks I found were in actinic and blue. The white was the telltale blue peak and low wave in the green/yellow/red. But no peaks. So I strongly believe there are no red or green diodes. If there actually are, I tip my hat to Kessil for really blending them in. Still won't change the hundreds of other wavelengths missing tho.

 

[LordDarth Bane]

I think u gave up too soon. The local store runs Kessil for the display tank and the acros are doing fine. You said you bleached your acors for such a low intensity? I think the Kessil is not that bright so you may have not set the right spectrum yet.

I have been using 2x Hydra 26HD for 8 months now. Some corals did lose a bit colour at first. But now both SPS and LPS are doing fine. Even my Aussie acans and doughnuts have kept their colours. I think I would not look back to T5, and never to MH.

 

[StarF]

I have been running led light for years (GHL Metris lamps) What i noticed from when i was running t5, that i needed some po4 and no3 in the system, with out it corals would stress. So now i am to keep po4 = 0,025-0,04 and no3 about 1-2. This gives me good color and good growth rates. Also i learned you dont need to crank the light all the way up, and getting a feel for the right spectrum blend is important to color and health.

I moved from a 3 year old system running on one metris lamp, to a new setup with 4 metris lamps, and so far the system has been running for around 6 month with out to much problems. These are just quick photos with my mobile, but colors are fine.

link to album:
http://imgur.com/a/AiVkL

 

[cobra2326]

When a LED has a diode of red or green or any wavelength. You will see a peak in the spectral plot. More diodes of X wavelength the higher the peak. The only peaks I found were in actinic and blue. The white was the telltale blue peak and low wave in the green/yellow/red. But no peaks. So I strongly believe there are no red or green diodes. If there actually are, I tip my hat to Kessil for really blending them in. Still won't change the hundreds of other wavelengths missing tho.

I'm sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation here. I'm glad halides are working well for you, and I totally agree that there are tons of high-end, successful SPS tanks running halides. Lets be fair on both ends though. The misinformation on both sides is not doing anyone any favors. I'm happy to provide more details if you'd like.

On another note, your previous tank was really nice. Well done!

 

[kevensquint]

I'm sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation here. I'm glad halides are working well for you, and I totally agree that there are tons of high-end, successful SPS tanks running halides. Lets be fair on both ends though. The misinformation on both sides is not doing anyone any favors. I'm happy to provide more details if you'd like.

On another note, your previous tank was really nice. Well done!

If anything is incorrect, it was learned from this question a while back that I asked to experts. " Are LED diodes one wavelength ?"

While I did not give a thorough or quoted explanation here. If the info I passed on, on LEDs is misinformation, you're gonna have to correct the designer of the new Orphek and the boss of Reefbrite. Because according to them. A diode while not precisely a 1nm wavelength. It is almost. I am passing on what I have learned from true known experts. One of the reasons I almost never participate in these forums anymore is anyone an correct anyone until who knows where the information became from in the first place. Was it Dana Riddle? or Johnny wishbone with 1 year experience. I think it's time for me to leave the rest of this for you guys to figure out. I have nothing more to contribute when information provided by the highest level of light experts in the hobby is now incorrect.

 

[cobra2326]

If anything is incorrect, it was learned from this question a while back that I asked to experts. " Are LED diodes one wavelength ?"

While I did not give a thorough or quoted explanation here. If the info I passed on, on LEDs is misinformation, you're gonna have to correct the designer of the new Orphek and the boss of Reefbrite. Because according to them. A diode while not precisely a 1nm wavelength. It is almost. I am passing on what I have learned from true known experts. One of the reasons I almost never participate in these forums anymore is anyone an correct anyone until who knows where the information became from in the first place. Was it Dana Riddle? or Johnny wishbone with 1 year experience. I think it's time for me to leave the rest of this for you guys to figure out. I have nothing more to contribute when information provided by the highest level of light experts in the hobby is now incorrect.

Before I post anything else, was I offensive in how I responded? If so, I will be more careful next time. I don't mean disrespect to anyone here and value your contributions. I just want to have a discussion and give both sides a fair, complete perspective.

 

[jda]

I hate posting resume stuff and all of that, but I have a Masters in Engineering from a Top-20 school, took five high level classes on quantum mechanics (a photon is a quantum for those who don't know) and studied LED a lot - believe it or not, they have not fundamentally changed much since the 1920s. My roommate in college is now an Engineer at Phillips in Germany working on LEDs - we still talk a lot. What kevensquint is saying is more real in the actual science than what gets passed around by most reefers and especially most manufacturers. What most people think is fair and balanced has usually come from other reefers, isolation from a single study or two or is BS from a panel manufacturer - most of it does not hold much water in the real world.

The bottom line is that the only savings from ANY light source is by cutting spectrum and keeping intensity high (LED) or just cutting intensity (less of another source... 250W Halide vs a 400W Halide, for example). A quantum from a LED with a wide spectrum and the same amount of energy will take the same wall power as a MH or any other source. There is no way around this. None. The science is there to produce LEDs that are broad spectrum, but there is no energy savings and some of the early wide spectrum diodes use more energy (they will get better).

I think that one positive that LED brought is a sense that most folks never needed as much power as they might have once had. A mixed reef did not need 4x400W MH and a pile of T5s at 1500W to do quite well. Sure, LEDs can do that job for 1/3 the wattage, but so could lower wattage metal halides or less T5 bulbs.

Although I don't recommend this to anybody, taking a Quantum Mechanics class at a local JUCO could do more for enlightenment on this subject than anything from a message board, BRS article, manufacturer paperwork or any of the other siloed information that is passed around as fact. When you understand what is in the particle, you can understand how it gets created.

Kevensquint - I used to try and persuade folks to stick around and fight any fight worth fighting, but I cannot do that anymore. I am sorry to see you go. I probably will be gone soon - I just can no longer argue with a guy (not on this post) who shows badly colored, misshapen stick and has all of the knowledge that anybody could ever have and discounts the advice of the experienced. I just don't need it anymore.

 

[plyle02]

I hate posting resume stuff and all of that, but I have a Masters in Engineering from a Top-20 school, took five high level classes on quantum mechanics (a photon is a quantum for those who don't know) and studied LED a lot - believe it or not, they have not fundamentally changed much since the 1920s. My roommate in college is now an Engineer at Phillips in Germany working on LEDs - we still talk a lot. What kevensquint is saying is more real in the actual science than what gets passed around by most reefers and especially most manufacturers. What most people think is fair and balanced has usually come from other reefers, isolation from a single study or two or is BS from a panel manufacturer - most of it does not hold much water in the real world.

The bottom line is that the only savings from ANY light source is by cutting spectrum and keeping intensity high (LED) or just cutting intensity (less of another source... 250W Halide vs a 400W Halide, for example). A quantum from a LED with a wide spectrum and the same amount of energy will take the same wall power as a MH or any other source. There is no way around this. None. The science is there to produce LEDs that are broad spectrum, but there is no energy savings and some of the early wide spectrum diodes use more energy (they will get better).

I think that one positive that LED brought is a sense that most folks never needed as much power as they might have once had. A mixed reef did not need 4x400W MH and a pile of T5s at 1500W to do quite well. Sure, LEDs can do that job for 1/3 the wattage, but so could lower wattage metal halides or less T5 bulbs.

Although I don't recommend this to anybody, taking a Quantum Mechanics class at a local JUCO could do more for enlightenment on this subject than anything from a message board, BRS article, manufacturer paperwork or any of the other siloed information that is passed around as fact. When you understand what is in the particle, you can understand how it gets created.

Kevensquint - I used to try and persuade folks to stick around and fight any fight worth fighting, but I cannot do that anymore. I am sorry to see you go. I probably will be gone soon - I just can no longer argue with a guy (not on this post) who shows badly colored, misshapen stick and has all of the knowledge that anybody could ever have and discounts the advice of the experienced. I just don't need it anymore.

:thumbsup:

 

[slavetonet]

Here is my unprofessional opinion on the lighting matter.
MH works on all level - high heat, high energy cost
T5 works on all level - medium to high heat, high / medium energy cost
Leds works on all level - Highend gear - medium to low heat / medium energy cost providing it is getting good light spread.

All will grow corals in sps tank to a certain degree. I feel the LEDs can improve over time with efficiency and design challenge.

 

[thirst]

I just combine all 3

Cebu sun
3x250 radium with 4x80 t5 and reefbrite xho

Massive overkill, trying to see if I can bleach my sps under 1500 par


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reefinder]

Thanks for this thread I am learning ������

 

[murphreef]

Good info and discussions.

I started a new 25G nano and bought the AI Prime HD unit about 3-4 months ago now.

Love the idea, the design and the energy usage but I can not stand the open ended options to adjust each color. I have no clue what or if I am giving too much light or not enough. LPS, zoas and my RBTA look fine but SPS no bueno and no growth. I wish AI would provide some proven light graphs that one could use vs having to dick around constantly.

I always had MH on my tanks before from my 180G SPS tank to my small 25G AIO Solana but was out of the hobby for around 3 years and figured I would go LED this time..... Figured it was a 25G cube, figured it would be great.....

Well after about 3-4 months I found out LED's are not my cup of tea I am going back to 20K MH lighting. Tried and proven on my end, always grew corals fast and the colors were awesome. I think LEDS are cool and all but just seem to harsh and too many options where MH just plug in and grow corals!