drummereef's 180g in-wall build

[drummereef]

Have you tried live brine shrimp at all? ...The battle continues.....

I haven't tried live brine shrimp yet, but it sounds like a good idea. Wondering if there is a food sized somewhere between Phyto and Cyclops. The Cyclops makes my wrasse happy but I haven't seen a coral eat it, at least when I was looking. Sonny (SunnyX) has been experimenting with a bunch if different amino acid / bacteria blends, primarily from Zeo. I don't have a clear understanding yet as to the benefit of an amino acids vs smaller sized meaty foods... except how expensive anything Zeo can get.

Are you running your DI cartridges vertical or horizontal?

I have 2 DI cartridges on my system and both are upright or vertical. Not that it's an exact science but the color changing resin in both cartridges look to be roughly half exhausted, or tan color. TDS is 000 coming out but PO4 read 0.05 with my Checker. I thought 000 TDS meant 0 everything? But in any event, the water is feeding my ATO and I've been doing water changes with it as well. I would guess it's a contributing factor to some of the algae that has stuck around.

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett,

Trying to figure out the magic Sonny uses with his voodoo magic tanks is something I'll never try and figure out myself

Has your TDS meters ever showed anything but 0 TDS? I had a brand new out of the box 6 stage filter that read 1 TDS from day one of making water. I check through inline as well as a Hanna handheld monitor. Have you changed any of your filters/DI since you've started your tank? I know myself after starting the tank and running ~300 gallons through within the first week the tank was up and running I decided to change filters just for having peace of mind.

I would try and change out your filters/DI if it's available and close to time for you. I would reccomend adding maybe another 2-3 DI cartridges in series as well just so you never have a question of the DI resin being bad. Just a thought.

 

[110galreef]

I will definately continue to see your progress as well as mine as I'm using ecobak pellets as well, but I started from day 1 and have been running carbon as well with no GFO. I as well dosed MB7 from day 1. Only thing I haven't run into like you was green hair algae.


The battle continues.....

I did the exact same thing on my new setup....just waited till cycle was over~4 weeks in to start bio pellets. I had a small HA on some rock, but lawnmower made it disappear in a week

 

[drummereef]

Has your TDS meters ever showed anything but 0 TDS?

Not at least measuring with my in-line meter. DI stage has always been 000
TDS from the beginning. I usually run around 9-15 after the RO membrane. Water pressure is 60-65psi consistently.

I did the exact same thing on my new setup....just waited till cycle was over~4 weeks in to start bio pellets. I had a small HA on some rock, but lawnmower made it disappear in a week

:thumbsup:

 

[drummereef]

So guys, after doing a lot of reading and thinking, I think we might be missing a critical element here... OK maybe it's just me.

I'm considering the idea of dosing some Zeo products. There seems to be a missing link between Zeovit users and Bio Pellet users. Since the Bio Pellets create a ULNS like Zeovit, when optimal water parameters are met, why aren't we as Bio Pellet users dosing a similar additive regimen as Zeo users. Zeo, while not an exact science, has done a good job creating a complete system that for the most part works - again given the optimal conditions. So it seems the fundamental difference between the two systems is the way bacteria colonize, feed and reproduce. As Pellet users we eliminate the Zeolites and replace with a Bio Pellet reactor. But at the same time a regular dosing schedule should be kept as long as NO3, PO4, Alk, Ca etc are kept within the parameters of a ULNS, otherwise we risk starving our corals from the lack of available nutrients. Make sense??

So with that here's a possible dosing outline.

1. Continue ecoBAK Pellets (carbon source)
2. Continue MB7 or switch to ZeoBak (bacteria)
3. Dose AAHC and/or Coral Vital (coral food)
4. Occasional dosing of Coral Snow for general nutrient reduction and amino acid transport.

This is why us as Bio Pellet users have been somewhat misguided IMO. We are told to feed more, but what specifically? Likewise, this is where the Zeo system thrives. There are other options but it seems like these are the most widely used and have noted success. Thoughts??

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett,

It is definately a great thought, I think the "what we feed more of" actually is what we are learning as bio pellet users.

In theory what you are going for should work great. You are introducing more phosphates into your tank that a normal non zeo/pellet user would but isn't that what we have them for? I'm on the learning curve with you and very interested in the outcome. Have you considered the extremely low bio-load you have in your tank as a reason to start putting more "coral food" in?

How often are you actually feeding at the moment? How much mb7 are you dosing right now?

 

[110galreef]

Guys...

Why continue to dose MB7? I have stopped totally since at least 4 weeks ago. I didn't plan to continue, as was primarily to just get the cycle going & help get a bacteria strong hold. I will retest my params fri & sat & report back. I want to continue NOT dosing any MB7 for simplicity & cost savings, plus I can be another side to this biopellets experiment! :beer:

Also, my Alk should be in the mid to low 8.xx's by then as well.

Can we start to get a good consencus on what we should be feeding our SPS & LPS corals in the water column....not for target feeding.

Either way I want to feed them a bit any way. Also what is supposed to be good for the SPS colors as well? Given a minimal water polution!

Thanks

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett,

I've been looking into your theories a bit more today. I was reading on what sonny is doing with his tank, and obviously if you can emulate just about anything that freak does you have a good thing going for you.

On his 2.0 tank he's doing something very very similar to what you are talking about. Using a "magic brew" of AA, zeobak, and coral snow. I think he's still dosing 14 drops of MB7 daily as well, and Prodibio Reef Booster.

You could be starting a revolution here!!

 

[drummereef]

Have you considered the extremely low bio-load you have in your tank as a reason to start putting more "coral food" in?

How often are you actually feeding at the moment? How much mb7 are you dosing right now?

Yes, the low fish bio load is one variable I'm looking at. Obviously if there is a high fish bio load there will be more waste from the fish, which intern would presumably benefit the corals. It's gross, but the bacteria laden poop is an excellent food source for corals. But I don't want to add fish to the system just for the excess available nutrient. I only want fish that I want to look at and are appropriately sized for my tank. So yes the idea is to supplement the missing nutrients with amino acids and the like. I think the corals are more inclined to uptake these kinds of nutrients vs larger meaty foods that tend to pollute the system.

I'm currently dosing 45ml per week of MB7. It's still on the high side but I thought it was helping reduce the last bit of algae on the rocks and sand. I'm probably going to experiment with dosing Coral Snow along with the bacteria and see if it helps encourage the nutrient export.

Why continue to dose MB7?

Can we start to get a good consencus on what we should be feeding our SPS & LPS corals in the water column....not for target feeding.

I don't know for sure 110g but I believe dosing bacteria alongside your carbon source whether it be a liquid or solid source, aids in the nutrient export process. It's slightly different in our case since the majority of the bacteria populates the bio pellets inside the reactor and not in the water column with vodka dosing, but I do believe it helps. Coral Snow for instance needs a transport mechanism for nutrient export and I think bacteria in the water column aids this process.

My previous post should help with the question about what to feed. Especially if you should start incorporating some of the ideas I suggested by dosing a balanced ratio of amino acid, bacteria, coral food, etc...

Here's that post...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18349887&postcount=2306

You could be starting a revolution here!!

:lol: I don't know about that (blushing)... But I do know there are some pioneers out there that have been willing to be a test bed for new technology, like Sonny. The practice of dosing amino acids in a balanced ratio of bacteria and coral food just makes sense to me. Feeding fish should be a separate practice to feeding corals when incorporating bacteria driven systems like ours. In traditional systems this might not be the case but I think we might be onto cracking the code to the bio revolution. Now all we need to do is put it into practice.

 

[110galreef]

Checked out the other foods suggested:

What is AAHC? Amino Acids? Are these zeo brand specific? Same with coral snow?

What about these foods...do you know anything about them? godd, bad, just a waste of money:
rotifeast, oyster feast, cyclopeez, Kent phytoplex, zeofood 7 w/ Amino Acids, or coral frenzy?

Thanks,

 

[drummereef]

Checked out the other foods suggested:

What is AAHC? Amino Acids? Are these zeo brand specific? Same with coral snow?

What about these foods...do you know anything about them? godd, bad, just a waste of money:
rotifeast, oyster feast, cyclopeez, Kent phytoplex, zeofood 7 w/ Amino Acids, or coral frenzy?

Thanks,

Yes they are Zeo products. AAHC is Amino Acid High Concentrate. Coral Snow is a biological facilitator which makes it easier for corals to uptake certain nutrients. Coral Frenzy (CF) is supposed to be great. Zeo Food7 is also good but may not be necessary if you dose AAHC and CF together. I've read the others aren't necessary if you stick to a mostly Zeo regimen. Seems like the AAHC, CF, Coral Snow, etc are in general more effective. Check out this link...

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10354

 

[110galreef]

Awesome Thanks for the info.

I will report back tomorrow or Sat w/ my current water params & coral happiness & I will be the fool w/o using MB7 in our experiment. I will try to order up some of the above foods & keep you all informed!

 

[drummereef]

Awesome Thanks for the info.

I will report back tomorrow or Sat w/ my current water params & coral happiness & I will be the fool w/o using MB7 in our experiment. I will try to order up some of the above foods & keep you all informed!

Great! There are some specifics to how these products are dosed. Sneak around over there and see what you can find out. The recommended doses on the bottles are not what is generally recommended by the users. Much less is needing in most cases. Just a heads up...

 

[110galreef]

Yeah I always err on the side of LOW. Thus why i am only running 750 ml of the biopellets.

FWIW: I have been feeding somewhat heavy last few days. I added 3 tangs last week and want to be sure they are fat & happy & do ok w/ their transitions. I now have:
3 sm-med tangs, med coral beauty, 6 blue green chromis, firefish, 2 small clowns & a lawnmower blenny. So my fish load is getting moderate atleast.

Hope to see favorable PO4 & nitrates again! Acrylic still only needs a wipe down ~ once a week.

 

[110galreef]

One thing i read and brings another concern, is I know we both are running ROX .08 carbon & the link mentiones it as basically too effective? Any ideas here? I am running about 2 cups for my setup and chg every two weeks. They also talk about 30days...seems a bit long for changing carbon out?

 

[drummereef]

Yeah I always err on the side of LOW. Thus why i am only running 750 ml of the biopellets... Hope to see favorable PO4 & nitrates again! Acrylic still only needs a wipe down ~ once a week.

One thing i read and brings another concern, is I know we both are running ROX .08 carbon & the link mentiones it as basically too effective? Any ideas here? I am running about 2 cups for my setup and chg every two weeks. They also talk about 30days...seems a bit long for changing carbon out?

:thumbsup: The idea again is to replicate the parameters of natural seawater. So make sure your salt mix for water changes aren't going to spike the alk and/or other parameters. If the salt mix has a higher (> 9) alk content then do smaller changes as to not disturb the balance in the system. Also, NO3 and PO4 should be 000 before starting a dosing routine. Getting all params inline with natural seawater properties is optimal. I should add about water changes, the idea in a UNLS from what I understand, is basically to replenish trace elements. Since the water is essentially stripped of unwanted nutrients from the bacteria system, trace elements must be added back into the system via water changes.

As far as Carbon is concerned, I'll re-read the FAQ. I didn't see the reference to ROX specifically but I did see some general carbon recommendations. I would guess using 1/2 as much ROX or just using a Lignite would suffice. The warning signs for Carbon OD would be pale colors and/or burnt tips. Since you would presumably be in an UNLS state, changing the Carbon every 30 days would probably be fine since it is being exhausted less frequently.

 

[110galreef]

:thumbsup: The idea again is to replicate the parameters of natural seawater. So make sure your salt mix for water changes aren't going to spike the alk and/or other parameters. If the salt mix has a higher (> 9) alk content then do smaller changes as to not disturb the balance in the system. Also, NO3 and PO4 should be 000 before starting a dosing routine. Getting all params inline with natural seawater properties is optimal. I should add about water changes, the idea in a UNLS from what I understand, is basically to replenish trace elements. Since the water is essentially stripped of unwanted nutrients from the bacteria system, trace elements must be added back into the system via water changes.

As far as Carbon is concerned, I'll re-read the FAQ. I didn't see the reference to ROX specifically but I did see some general carbon recommendations. I would guess using 1/2 as much ROX or just using a Lignite would suffice. The warning signs for Carbon OD would be pale colors and/or burnt tips. Since you would presumably be in an UNLS state, changing the Carbon every 30 days would probably be fine since it is being exhausted less frequently.

What salt are you are using...i am using IO & it supposed to have an ALK of 11.0.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15778069&postcount=1

Tropic Marine Pro looks about ideal for ALK & Calcium & Mg params to help raise the used Cal & Mg between WC & fairly low ALK.....but $75 for 200g mix opposed to IO at $43....

Red sea coral pro looks good based on #'s & is $50 for 175g?
Red sea not too bad, tad low on Cal, but is $49 for 200g mix & can get at local Petco??
EDIT...reading these now have ALK of 12-13dKh in new formula....So thats out.

Obviuosly IO is higher than the 7.0 that we are shooting for? However a small WC of 20g on a 275g setup shouldn't change ALK overall too much, I'd imagine....may have to run a test before WC & after to see how much it changes?

 

[drummereef]

What salt are you are using...i am using IO & it supposed to have an ALK of 11.0.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15778069&postcount=1

I'm changing my DI resins today so I'll run a test gallon of IO and see what dkh I'm getting. I'll post back tonight.

 

[drummereef]

Reporting back...

I mixed up 1 gallon of saltwater using IO salt. The Alk readings are as follows:

1.025 = 10.1dkh
1.023 = 9.0dkh

It was recommended when using IO salt to do smaller water changes as to avoid an Alk spike if using a salt mix that has a significantly higher make-up Alk than your targeted Alk. There's ways of lowering the Alk in new saltwater but I'm not up for the risk. Seachem Salt seems like a valid alternative as people have reported lower Alk, around 8.5dkh. And it's still relatively inexpensive in comparison to the other "boutique" salts.

So the options are...

1. Change Salt Mix
2. Do smaller weekly water changes. 5% vs the standard 10% which I'm currently performing.


Here's the link about lowering Alkalinity with Muriatic Acid. Try this at your own risk.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1978775


I'm also going to do a water change this weekend now that my DI resins are new again. My salinity is currently 1.025 so I will mix the new water to 1.025 and see how big of an Alk spike I get using IO salt. It will be approximately a 10% change. This will at least give us a baseline to go from. I'll post back with results.

 

[sirreal63]

Brett, I mix Oceanic and IO in a 50/50 mix and it balances out nicely. If that helps any, the two cheapest salts to boot.