drummereef's 180g in-wall build

[drummereef]

So Josh, what's the proper protocol when using the SeaKlear Phosphate Remover? Some people I've seen give their rock a preliminary Muriatic Acid bath, Rinse, then dose the SeaKlear while cycling the rock. I'm not sure I'm up to using the Muriatic Acid (that stuff has always scared me :lol or if it's completely necessary... but I definitely see the benefit in using the SeaKlear.

So, should I cycle the rock in a separate rubbermaid container, then add it to the fuge when it's ready? Or just throw it in, and dose SeaKlear on the whole system?

 

[naprestsleep]

You don't want the lanthanum chloride(SeaKlear) precipitate to mix into your display tank, some have reported it can be detrimental to filter feeding organisms. I would use a separate container(and make sure you rinse the rock well afterwards) and/or a filter sock/pump setup that would cause all the water to go through a sock after mixing with the lanthanum chloride to filter out the precipitate.

 

[drummereef]

You don't want the lanthanum chloride(SeaKlear) precipitate to mix into your display tank, some have reported it can be detrimental to filter feeding organisms. I would use a separate container(and make sure you rinse the rock well afterwards) and/or a filter sock/pump setup that would cause all the water to go through a sock after mixing with the lanthanum chloride to filter out the precipitate.

OK, thanks naprestsleep. Is there a ratio of SeaKlear per gallon I should stick to? Or is there a drip rate that's appropriate etc..? Still a little fuzzy on how to actually dose the stuff.

 

[naprestsleep]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett,

What I would reccomend is cycling your rock in a different bin, maybe just use the water from you current tank during some water changes. You are worried about phosphates leaching so this would keep them from making it into your display tank for the time being. If you are going to dose it in a seperate bin you have no real need to worry about the precipitate.

The precipitate is up for debate on any side affects. Some have claimed it can affect tangs gills....I've never personally seen this but then again my tank is "fairly" low on p04 anyway....so I'm assuming the precipitate is either A. trapped by my 5 micron sock that I dose into from my overflow or B. I'm not precipitating enough anyway. I believe there is an ongoing debate on to if there is in fact any side affects of the precipitate being in a tank long term without being removed and potentially releasing the p04 back into the tank. I think some of the greater minds than mine believe the solubility of the precipitate is not to be worried about in the tank long term. Take that for what it's worth.

I've tried many ways of dosing it. I've done an IV drip of diluted solution as well as just using a dripper into my overflow and doing 1 drip every 10 minutes of so, as well as just dumping in .5ml in all at one time. All which I would say keep my p04 at decent levels and keeps me from using a ton of GFO.

The upsate thread is definately worth taking a look over as that's where I got most of my information on it and the kahunas to try it on my tank.

If you are just going to use it for your new rock I wouldn't be afraid to dump it in an not worry about it at all. If you do decide to use it on your display tank a few things I would reccomend doing would be to test p04 before/after as well as your DKH. The lanthanum can lower your DKH if there isn't enough p04 to attach to I believe.

All in all, I am a big fan of the stuff and would reccomend you give it a try.

 

[drummereef]

Great info, thanks guys. :thumbsup: OK, I'll cycle the rock in a separate container. So if I were just to manually dose it, is there a specific ration to use? i.e. milliliters per gallon etc...? And at what frequency should I dose during the cycling period; daily, weekly?

 

[cromedogg33]

The best form that allows the most capturing of phosphates is to dilute it roughly 1ml for 1 liter of water and to drip it over a long period (a few hours to a day). This should ensure that you aren't soaking up calcium carbonate but rather binding it to the phophate.

You could set it up in a doser if you have one laying around and just dilute it and run it everyday. You really only need to dose as long as you feel you need to. It's extremely extremely cheap to use so you don't have to worry about overdosing.

I would just rinse off the rock weekly while cycling and keep dosing until you aren't leaching anymore.

 

[drummereef]

The best form that allows the most capturing of phosphates is to dilute it roughly 1ml for 1 liter of water and to drip it over a long period (a few hours to a day). This should ensure that you aren't soaking up calcium carbonate but rather binding it to the phophate.

You could set it up in a doser if you have one laying around and just dilute it and run it everyday. You really only need to dose as long as you feel you need to. It's extremely extremely cheap to use so you don't have to worry about overdosing.

I would just rinse off the rock weekly while cycling and keep dosing until you aren't leaching anymore.

OK perfect. That's exactly what I was wondering. I had read the 1ml/1L ratio but there's little discussion on dosing just curing base rock. Most of the discussion in the linked forum is to dose on a "running" system. So you think 4-6 weeks of cycling should do it?

Also, SeaKlear makes a couple different phosphate remover products. Is this the one I'm looking for? http://www.seaklear.com/what/seaklear-products/seaklear-phosphate-remover-cr They also make a phosphate remover specific for aquarium use as well...

 

[cromedogg33]

Yes that's what you are looking for. If I remember correctly get the pool one. The aquarium one they just charge for it and dilute it for you. You should be able to go to any pool company and get one for around 40$.

You are also correct with the dosing ratio for "in-tank dosing". I believe that to be the most affective way of removing phosphates because it allows the lathanum chloride time to react with the phosphates.

If it were me I woud just dose directly into the tub you plan on using, say .5 to 1ml a day spread out without diluting it. Just whenever you remember to walk by, just put a drop or 2 in.

 

[drummereef]

Yes that's what you are looking for. If I remember correctly get the pool one. The aquarium one they just charge for it and dilute it for you. You should be able to go to any pool company and get one for around 40$.

You are also correct with the dosing ratio for "in-tank dosing". I believe that to be the most affective way of removing phosphates because it allows the lathanum chloride time to react with the phosphates.

If it were me I woud just dose directly into the tub you plan on using, say .5 to 1ml a day spread out without diluting it. Just whenever you remember to walk by, just put a drop or 2 in.

Excellent, thanks Josh!!

 

[Screener]

Drummer, wonderful thread, thank you so much for keeping it up.

I was wondering about the performance of your re-circulating bio pellet reactor. Can you update us on the nitrate levels it seems to be maintaining in your system and your impressions of how much media it requires compared to a non re-circulation fluidized bed reactor.

Also are there reactors meant to be aerobic? if so, do you think you are creating anaerobic conditions in the bed?, and if the bacterial load does deplete O2 in the reactor is that bad? or OK?

Also maybe of interest to you and others who have posted recently on this thread, there are bentonite conjugated Lanthanum preparations out there. These kinds of preparations are used for removing P04 from lake and pond water - that can also be a drinking water source. I found extensive scientific work had been done on the products in fresh water - not so much on salt or high KDH water. Although we all know lanthanum does work in SSW. Coupling the Lanthanum to bentonite might be a good way to keep it out of the drinking water and also the aquarium DT - I am thinking we could use it say by dripping it into the intake of a canister filter. Could be a filter sock is not fine enough? but might also work I think.

The cost of this bentonite/lanthanum material seems fairly low I found 40lb for $175 USD w free delivery in the US. This 40 lb bucket probably enough for an aquarium for a zillion years at our likely dose rates of a few mg per liter. Do you know if anyone on Reef Central has used the bentonite sequestered lanthanum products?

Bentonite is used to bind protein in the wine making process to stabilize wine to increased temperature during transport or storage. I wonder if other than absorbing P04 this lanthanum/bentonite compound could also be another way to remove the low level organic matter that doesn't skim well (see Sanjay et al.). Possible killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.

 

[drummereef]

Drummer, wonderful thread, thank you so much for keeping it up.

I was wondering about the performance of your re-circulating bio pellet reactor. Can you update us on the nitrate levels it seems to be maintaining in your system and your impressions of how much media it requires compared to a non re-circulation fluidized bed reactor.

Also are there reactors meant to be aerobic? if so, do you think you are creating anaerobic conditions in the bed?, and if the bacterial load does deplete O2 in the reactor is that bad? or OK?

Also maybe of interest to you and others who have posted recently on this thread, there are bentonite conjugated Lanthanum preparations out there. These kinds of preparations are used for removing P04 from lake and pond water - that can also be a drinking water source. I found extensive scientific work had been done on the products in fresh water - not so much on salt or high KDH water. Although we all know lanthanum does work in SSW. Coupling the Lanthanum to bentonite might be a good way to keep it out of the drinking water and also the aquarium DT - I am thinking we could use it say by dripping it into the intake of a canister filter. Could be a filter sock is not fine enough? but might also work I think.

The cost of this bentonite/lanthanum material seems fairly low I found 40lb for $175 USD w free delivery in the US. This 40 lb bucket probably enough for an aquarium for a zillion years at our likely dose rates of a few mg per liter. Do you know if anyone on Reef Central has used the bentonite sequestered lanthanum products?

Bentonite is used to bind protein in the wine making process to stabilize wine to increased temperature during transport or storage. I wonder if other than absorbing P04 this lanthanum/bentonite compound could also be another way to remove the low level organic matter that doesn't skim well (see Sanjay et al.). Possible killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.

So far so good in regards to the recirc mod on the biopellet reactor. I need to test again but the last time I tested NO3 it was somewhere between 0 and 5ppm on my API kit. I'll test again this weekend and post back on the results. I haven't noticed any difference with the amount of media needed to maintain low NO3, although I haven't played around with the amount of media in the reactor. I just filled it up, adjusted the flow, and it's been running ever since. Fluidization is very good inside the reactor, tumbling is fairly gentle and the whole reactor is tumbling - no dead spots. I don't think there is a significant limitation in O2 throughout the reactor since flow-through is consistent. If the flow-through stopped for some reason, yes there definitely would be an issue with bacteria die-off. By limiting (not shutting off) the bacteria's food source the idea is to limit the growth rate of the bacteria. So to limit the flow-through, less bacteria is needed to uptake the excess NO3 and PO4. So far I've seen positive results in regards to nutrient control.

Very interesting stuff you've found in regards to Lanthanum Chloride dosing. I'm still learning about it but it seems like it could really be a GFO killer - barring any long term issues. Seems like people have been quite successful dosing periodically when a nutrient issue arises versus running a GFO reactor 24/7. If you find out any more information or do testing yourself on the Bentonite/Lanthanum combination I'd be interested in hearing. Thanks for the info.

 

[drummereef]

UPDATE:


I can't take the suspense.

I ordered 55lbs of Pukani this time around. I was pleasantly surprised to see the shipping label said 64lbs! I'm guessing there's roughly 60lbs of rock here. The rock is really nice, very natural looking. The pieces are definitely lighter, more porous, than the Marco rock in the display. Shape and texture is relatively the same but I'd give a slight edge in aesthetic to the Pukani. Kinda gives me the bug to set up anther display. :rollface:

I gave each piece a quick dip in freshwater just to get most of the sediment and other debris off the rock. To my surprise there were a few LIVE spiders in the rocks! Scared the $#@! out of me. LOL! Here's what ~60lbs of Pukani rock looks like.

Let's get this cycle started! That's a 35 gallon tub for reference.

And finally, here's the latest sump pic. Sorry for the delay 110g!

 

[cromedogg33]

There is just really something wrong with you.

 

[henrystyle]

Aint been paying attention. What did I miss?
What is this new rock for?

 

[drummereef]

There is just really something wrong with you.

Hahahahahahahahahaha! :lol: :rollface: :lol2: I actually laughed out loud when I read that this morning. haha

Aint been paying attention. What did I miss?
What is this new rock for?

Hey Henry. It's rock for my fuge tank - the 70g rubbermaid stock tank to the right in the sump pic above.

 

[drummereef]

Rock has been wet since Friday and I'm already seeing some major nutrients. Tested PO4 tonight and it was 0.98ppm! :eek1: That's only 2 days into the cycle! I think some SeaKlear dosing is in my near future.

 

[reeftanknewbie]

Please post your results in using SeaKlear. I know a guy locally to me who has been using it and reports good results but I remain a skeptic as it is relativity new to our use and their is no information on long term effects.

 

[cromedogg33]

Please post your results in using SeaKlear. I know a guy locally to me who has been using it and reports good results but I remain a skeptic as it is relativity new to our use and their is no information on long term effects.

Lanthanum chloride is far from new in our hobby. Major public aquariums have been using it for a very long time. I believe they use a sand filter that they push the water through to catch all the precipitate if I remember correctly.

It is proven to work, and work well.

 

[drummereef]

Please post your results in using SeaKlear. I know a guy locally to me who has been using it and reports good results but I remain a skeptic as it is relativity new to our use and their is no information on long term effects.

I will indeed reeftanknewbie. I figured I'd wait a week and let things settle in for a bit before dosing. I need to get some PO4 refills for my Hanna tester in the mean time. I'll definitely be updating the progress as it moves along.

Lanthanum chloride is far from new in our hobby. Major public aquariums have been using it for a very long time. I believe they use a sand filter that they push the water through to catch all the precipitate if I remember correctly.

It is proven to work, and work well.

:thumbsup: