DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[Spuds725]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7308942#post7308942 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KafudaFish
I was wondering if you could run them in a time series such as adding a new bucket every year. For a larger system by the end of the second year there would be 3 buckets online and the first could be removed in case anyone was worried about the tank crashing. Since the bucket is left completely undisturbed there would be no real way of checking on it. Right?

No reason not to, was discussed 30 pages back (or so)-- you might get a slight nitrate bump from the bioload getting transferred when one of the buckets is removed..

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7307072#post7307072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr Bojangles
I think the more the better, but I have a 5g bucket on a 180g total water and my levels are just about to "0" now. It just takes time.

Mine are far from 0 after 4 months, I think I'm a bit undersized (5 gallon bucket on a 135 gallon system)-- I can't seem to find my RDSB's on switch....

my fuge is very small and I only have a small amount of macro growing in it (so I'm not pulling out much through my fuge either), hoping it will take off when I get my new 29 gallon fuge plumbed in (should be in later this week)-- with much better lighting//

 

[boxfishpooalot]

I read somwhere that without ditritus(fish poo,bacterial flock, organic matter-rotting stuff) denitrification will not take place.

Now, to all you running a filter bag before the remote bucket and have waited for so long, perhaps try without the filtering media.


I have a story. Long time ago, I had a 30gallon tank. In it were probably 12 fish, very crammed in there. Dont flame me I was a newb back then....

But anyways, it was crammed inside. The tank was skimmerless and we fed those fish like we were idiots(we were then :lol Ok so the sand bed in the tank was only abou 2.5" deep. But, to my surprise when testing with the nitrate kit, a completly clear color was found. Suggesting undectable nitrates. Point is that organics must have played an important role for this sand bed!

Fish poop and such must contain a very nice carbon sorce for theese bacteria to grow. So, one day i tore down the tank. After taking out all the fish I started digging in the sand to remove it. To my surprize the sand was like a ROCK! Must be some sort of connection, but it worked.



Now, onto to present day, my tank today(125gallon). I did a small experiment. I placed a glass drinking cup inside my sump and filled it with sand. After a couple of days I noticed that dirt and organics were being filled inside the cup, due to low water flow. Stuff settled in there. After about 2 weeks, I took the cup out to take a look at it and to my surprise there were many bubbles(nitrogen gas) inside the sand.

So, perhaps to speed the cycle of denitrification, you need to have a filled up sandbed with lots of poop and rotting stuff. Try it

 

[Savatage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7324528#post7324528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
I read somwhere that without ditritus(fish poo,bacterial flock, organic matter-rotting stuff) denitrification will not take place.

Now, to all you running a filter bag before the remote bucket and have waited for so long, perhaps try without the filtering media.

I have a story. Long time ago, I had a 30gallon tank. In it were probably 12 fish, very crammed in there. Dont flame me I was a newb back then....

But anyways, it was crammed inside. The tank was skimmerless and we fed those fish like we were idiots(we were then :lol Ok so the sand bed in the tank was only abou 2.5" deep. But, to my surprise when testing with the nitrate kit, a completly clear color was found. Suggesting undectable nitrates. Point is that organics must have played an important role for this sand bed!

Fish poop and such must contain a very nice carbon sorce for theese bacteria to grow. So, one day i tore down the tank. After taking out all the fish I started digging in the sand to remove it. To my surprize the sand was like a ROCK! Must be some sort of connection, but it worked.

Now, onto to present day, my tank today(125gallon). I did a small experiment. I placed a glass drinking cup inside my sump and filled it with sand. After a couple of days I noticed that dirt and organics were being filled inside the cup, due to low water flow. Stuff settled in there. After about 2 weeks, I took the cup out to take a look at it and to my surprise there were many bubbles(nitrogen gas) inside the sand.

So, perhaps to speed the cycle of denitrification, you need to have a filled up sandbed with lots of poop and rotting stuff. Try it

Sounds like it makes scense to me

 

[Spuds725]

These have been shown to work with a lack of detritus, and without some of the issues of traditional DSBs because of this--

I wouldn't go out of my way to pollute your RDSBs--- the bacteria is far too small to make direct use of the solids in detritus and IMO the bacteria can only utilize the nitrates--- same principal as a denitrator (coil type)-- low oxygen, and a surface to grow upon is all that it should need.

if it is utilizing carbon, there is plenty available in the water

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7324528#post7324528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
I read somwhere that without ditritus(fish poo,bacterial flock, organic matter-rotting stuff) denitrification will not take place.

I'm having a hard time taking this seriously, but I will do my best.

"Somewhere" is not particularly useful. Denitrification occurs primarily, in Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) areas where Nitrate is present, and the Hypoxic condition causes Nitrate to be used as a receptor in place of oxygen, for non-obligate Anaerobic bacteria.

Now, to all you running a filter bag before the remote bucket and have waited for so long, perhaps try without the filtering media.

Yes, the Filter bag ( or sock ) does generate Nitrates, but if you change it weekly, the effect is minimal.

Fish poop and such must contain a very nice carbon sorce for theese bacteria to grow. So, one day i tore down the tank. After taking out all the fish I started digging in the sand to remove it. To my surprize the sand was like a ROCK! Must be some sort of connection, but it worked.

The "crazy overfeeding" sent a huge amount of Phosphate into the bed, which at the "fairly high" pH near the surface of the bed, caused Phosphate to "bind" to the substrate. This promotes crystalization which turned the bed to rock, nearer the surface.

So, you should be thankful that sand beds can make up for these poor husbandry practices, over some period of time, but, this is where the terrible "crach stories" come from, and long term reef systems will suffer terribly from this type of practice.

So, perhaps to speed the cycle of denitrification, you need to have a filled up sandbed with lots of poop and rotting stuff. Try it

Absolutely, do not try it ! Ammonia levels will only be increased unreasonably in the short term, and no long term balance of Faculative bacteria will be generated.

> Barry

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Randy says organics are required.... Check here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=839279

Organics Worked for me, but it may not be for the sps type(due to phosphates)

 

[scrager]

partially true. you missed this part:

Denitrification per se does require an organic carbon source. Dissolved organics may work better than solid ones since they need to penetrate down to the deeper anoxic parts of the sand.

specifically the part where dissolved are better than solids. of course organics are needed to start the process, but they need to be broken down to be soluble before teh bacteria can take it in.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Yes dissolved *may* be better. But the point is still true organics are required for denitrification to take place Besides, all large organcis will be dissolved in time, therefore I dont think size is a big concern. Both the cup and the 30 gal were low flow, so perhaps as the organics dissolved, gravity sunk pulled it into the bed where denitrification takes place.

On my 30gal I did not run a skimmer. When I got one it didnt skimm. My new tank skimms although.

 

[a4twenty]

just another quick update. (2 months in )

following my last update ( down to 1.5 ppm ) i cleaned up my fuge and trimmed my macro. i'm happy to say that my nitrates have been holding at 0 and it looks like i'm starting to win the battle with my hair algae. ( keeping fingers crossed )

hey boxfish how close do you keep your 400w? i havn't turned mine on yet ( i'm scared of the affect it would have on the HA )

 

[psimitry]

Was curious about a construction method.

Has anyone tried to use a rubbermaid "roughneck" container? Was thinking about getting an 18G container and using about 150-200# of sand.

However, I was worried about the structural integrity of it.

The last thing I need is to have the thing burst, spewing 200# of bacteria laden, extremely smelly sand/water all over my floor.

Thoughts?

 

[a4twenty]

i havn't used the roughneck containers but i know their brute containers can take a lot of weight. i use a 44g brute for water storage and fill it with 35+ g and have never had any problems.

if this is for you 50g tank you could probably get away with a smaller container. currently i am running a 5g RDSB on my 140g system and have no nitrates present.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

my halide is about 10 inches from the surface water, but I use a strong fan over cross the bulb to cool the water and bulb.

 

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7363206#post7363206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
my halide is about 10 inches from the surface water, but I use a strong fan over cross the bulb to cool the water and bulb.

Aim that fan at the water, and not at the bulb. Your bulb is designed to burn at a certain temp, and cooling it as it burns causes the color spectrum to shift. You will do yourself far more good aiming the fan at the surface of the water.

 

[Savatage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7361909#post7361909 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psimitry
Was curious about a construction method.

Has anyone tried to use a rubbermaid "roughneck" container? Was thinking about getting an 18G container and using about 150-200# of sand.

However, I was worried about the structural integrity of it.

The last thing I need is to have the thing burst, spewing 200# of bacteria laden, extremely smelly sand/water all over my floor.

Thoughts?

I think the structural integrity will fail. It all depends on the thickness of the container and your best bet is to take the container outside, fill it with water, and see how much is stretches. Multiply that by 2 if you plan to use sand in it. I have a heavy rubbermaid container that would fail if filled with water and sand, but it is square.

If your bucket is round, you should be fine because it will distribute even pressure around all surfaces.

 

[Savatage]

Just to add something. I just noticed you said it was a roughneck container. If it is round, it will hold. You could probably beat it with a bat and it would probably still hold.

I use a hugh container that is only like a eighth inch thick, but it is fine because it is round and distibutes equal/even pressure all the way around.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7363311#post7363311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DgenR8
Aim that fan at the water, and not at the bulb. Your bulb is designed to burn at a certain temp, and cooling it as it burns causes the color spectrum to shift. You will do yourself far more good aiming the fan at the surface of the water.

thx for the tip! Probably explains why the bulb color shifts from orange to yellow somtimes.

 

[crypt-keeper]

so u just pump the water in the top and it flows over to the other side and drains back to the tank?

I have a local who is pumping the water into the bottom making the water flow up thru the sand. Which is better????

 

[KEstep]

Flowing through the bottom is bad because it does not allow the o2 levels to be low. Just go over the top.

 

[a4twenty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7402243#post7402243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crypt-keeper
I have a local who is pumping the water into the bottom making the water flow up thru the sand. Which is better????

sounds like a plenum rather than a DSB

 

[jipps]

Sorry if this has been asked already, I just don't have the time to read through 34 pages...

How exactly would you plumb something like this? I'm a little new to plumbing so more detail is appreciated. Thanks