Dsb's work, what makes them work best?

[bertoni]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6476824#post6476824 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
"Worthless" is a HUGE word.

Sand beds get a lot more Advection ( bulk ) floe when they have a layer of .5 to 1.5mm sand at the top, and with the much larger flow that this allows.

I sure do like the animals, I'm going to keep them in my tank.

> barryhc

Diffusion, in its technical sense, is a very slow process. Even single-celled creatures such as Paramecium cannot depend on diffusion to move compounds throughout the cell and have developed internal circulation organs, etc, so that they need not depend on it. Ruppert's book "Invertebrate Zoology: An Evolutionary Approach" has a chapter on protists that discusses some of these mechanisms.

So I think the bottom line is that hoping diffusion will do the job is very iffy, to say the least.

The problem with grains of sand in the range you mentioned is that a lot of the sandbed animals need a finer substrate. Your approach will prove more bulk flow; a DSB is designed to depend on bioturbation. I've used the coarser substrates and not liked the results.

 

[tsquad]

Actually Joe, my post doesn't help at all. Random DSB fact brought to you by Tyler.

Anyways, when I saw the algae building up (valonia, and hair), I decided to "start over" (cooking). The rock had a lot of valonia when I bought it anyway. So when I saw it growing, I thought it was due to my sand not being deep enough. Now that the sand is deep enough, it's fine. Haven't had any algae problems with my true DSB. More rambling lol

 

[aubee91]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477297#post6477297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
Proximity also helps.

If you can get nitrate created very close to where it's used, it makes the whole process go a lot faster.

So is this where the "interface" between the aerobic and anaerobic sections of the DSB comes in? The aerobic bacteria nitrify and hand it off to the anaerobic for denitrification?

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477297#post6477297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
Proximity also helps.

If you can get nitrate created very close to where it's used, it makes the whole process go a lot faster.

Tell us about where it gets used. Do we want the process to go faster?

Thanks > barryhc

 

[joefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477414#post6477414 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tsquad
Joe, I don't know if this'll help, but since I cooked my rock and upped my SSB from 3" to a 6" DSB, I haven't had ANY nuisance algae growth. Just coralline, and I use my Magfloat once or twice a week, just to keep the glass as clear as possible.

Before doing this, I had hair algae pockets, valonia all over, and had to clean the glass every two days at least.

Everything helps .

I would like to know at what point did you say it's not a fauna cycle and You had to take different actions to correct it .

Thanks for the help,
Joe

 

[inwall75]

Joefish,

That's a lot of the problem. Softies like consistent Ca/alk but most actually like dirty water. LPS enjoy consistent Ca/alk and like occasional feedings. Some like clean water and some like dirty water but they are pretty adaptable. SPS like consistent Ca/alk but typically prefer spotless water if you want them to be colored up like we normally do.

 

[joefish]

I nned to post faster .:lol:

Actually Joe, my post doesn't help at all. Random DSB fact brought to you by Tyler.

Anyways, when I saw the algae building up (valonia, and hair), I decided to "start over" (cooking). The rock had a lot of valonia when I bought it anyway. So when I saw it growing, I thought it was due to my sand not being deep enough. Now that the sand is deep enough, it's fine. Haven't had any algae problems with my true DSB. More rambling .

 

[tsquad]

I knew it wasn't a fauna cycle. When I started the tank, I used 180lbs of LR from a reefer in NYC, and 100lbs of Southdown. No LS. So I had barely any life in the bed. So there wasn't much fauna to cycle :lol:

When increasing my bed depth, I used 75lbs of LS from a local reefer. Now I have lots of infauna, and no algae.

But that doesn't really answer your Q. I'll let someone who's had a DSB fail answer, rather than myself.

 

[joefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477493#post6477493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
Joefish,

That's a lot of the problem. Softies like consistent Ca/alk but most actually like dirty water. LPS enjoy consistent Ca/alk and like occasional feedings. Some like clean water and some like dirty water but they are pretty adaptable. SPS like consistent Ca/alk but typically prefer spotless water if you want them to be colored up like we normally do.

He ! HE ! now we're talking .

How much algae is acceptable to be shown to keep these different types of corals .

Or better yet , how much nutrients does it take make Algae , Can we use the amount of algae as a guide to our nutrient levels .

I hope this rambling makes sense ?

 

[joefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477537#post6477537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tsquad


But that doesn't really answer your Q. I'll let someone who's had a DSB fail answer, rather than myself.

Noooo ! I want someone with a succesful DSB explain the cycles and warning signs .

 

[tsquad]

If I saw algae start popping up, I'd increase my water changes. I haven't done one since I finished cooking two months ago. Cut down on photoperiod too. If that doesn't fix it, and my Foxface doesn't eat it, then I would probably give up :lol:

 

[inwall75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477541#post6477541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
He ! HE ! now we're talking .

How much algae is acceptable to be shown to keep these different types of corals .

Or better yet , how much nutrients does it take make Algae , Can we use the amount of algae as a guide to our nutrient levels .

I hope this rambling makes sense ?

You can only SOMEWHAT use algae as a barometer on nutrient levels. Some algae are not as limited as we would like.
Our tanks are quite dynamic and we don't have a lot of control. That is the main reason why I prefer BB for my SPS tank. I'm in more control than bacteria. That is MY CHOICE and I'm not telling other people that they have to as well so I don't want to hear from the normal trolls. If you have SPS with a sandbed, I'll respect your choice...respect mine as well.

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477382#post6477382 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
No I don't believe a tank can have zero algae , but let's talk about when it is a problem . Obviuosly a large amount will have to do with what animals you are keeping .

Exactly!

quote by barryhc:
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Obviously, the aquarist himself is a part of the system. Each of us will have different energy levels to expend on pre setup research, setup effort and cost, routine maintanence incl. cost, etc. etc. .
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This also should help decied on which kind of corals one wants to keep.

Exactly again.

I'm hoping some one will still answer this for me .

I think the animals will answer it in the end, but maybe someone else will chime in. I hope so, I would like to know too!

We need better Phosphate test kits too!

> barryhc

 

[Amphiprionocellaris]

In short, too much algae is when one of two things start happening (or both).

1) The algae physically overgrows or outcompetes the coral, causing the coral to reced and/or die. This can be caused by too many nutrients or by factors causing the algae to be more dominant. For example, at the northern extremes of coral growth, algae is more suited to survive (due to decreased temperature), and thus the corals are a secondary species.

2) Chemicals released by the algae cause the coral to recede.

That's when there's too much algae.
Too much nutrient matter is different. Stonies (all of them) have lower tolerance for phosphate because it interrupts their skeletal growth and allows for algae to outcompete them. They will live, but not thrive. Soft corals will tolerate higher levels of phosphate, because there is little to no calcification going on, but they still prefer nutrient poor water as much as stonies (ie, they just don't need it). IMO, detectable phosphate is too much, because we can only test for a certain type of the many forms, but I don't know off the top of my head at what concentration it interferes with calcification (I'm sure there's a number floating around somewhere; if not, it should be easily determined).

As far as algae being a warning sign, that's a little harder. Algae certainly can be a warning sign of imminent failure, but you also have to take into account the balance (or potential lack thereof) of herbivores.

Hope this helps...if not, I'll just type some more.

 

[npaden]

Joe, I'll try to answer both of your questions as well as I can.

Reefers who have DSB working correctly , when you see algae starting to form , how do you know when it's just a fauna cycle or a sign of a bigger problem ?

Maybe we should discuss whats exceptable amounts then . How much in a sps tank ?

IMO and IME the signs that you know when it is not just a fauna cycle is when I see algae growing on any surface that is easily accessible by my clean up crew. If there is some minor amounts of algae growing in an area that my snails or fish can't reach I usually don't worry much about it as long as it isn't very noticeable. If I see signs of an upcoming problem I'm going to inventory my clean up crew to see if there are plenty of snails to deal with any algae, do some tests to see if I have any measurable phosphates or nitrates, and review my husbandry behavior for the last few weeks or months. (I.E. have a skipped a water change that needed done, when was the last time I changed out bulbs, etc.) Usually I can identify the fact that somehow I've let my snails dwindle down and only have a dozen turbo snails or realize that it has actually been 3 months since I did a water change or something like that. If I correct the issue I identify, I've always been able to get the algae back in line before it became much of a problem.

To me unacceptable amounts of algae present is when the algae is either: 1) An eyesore and people who look at your tank notice the algae instead of the corals that we work so hard on. Or 2) Actually limiting the corals health or growth because it is either growing on the coral or hurting it in some way.

That's my thoughts. Hope that helps some.

 

[joefish]

Amphiprionocellaris,

You are an extreemest that's for sure ,Keep typing though .

 

[npaden]

Here's a question for everyone. Do you use any type of phosphate removers? Rowaphos, Phosguard, etc.?

I used to use Phosguard but haven't used any in a couple years. I probably should get one of the fancy phosphate reactors but never seem to be able to test any phosphate in my tank water and feel that the macro algae in my refugium and my skimmer must be doing a good enough job?

Thanks, Nathan

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477839#post6477839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
Here's a question for everyone. Do you use any type of phosphate removers? Rowaphos, Phosguard, etc.?

I used to use Phosguard but haven't used any in a couple years. I probably should get one of the fancy phosphate reactors but never seem to be able to test any phosphate in my tank water and feel that the macro algae in my refugium and my skimmer must be doing a good enough job?

Thanks, Nathan

I'm of the philosophy that as long as my chaeto is growing, and algae in the tank is under control (not causing problems), and I have no detectable phosphate in the water column, then no, I won't use any phosphate removers.

I think my experience is tainted with the stuff I used to use on my berlin style reef back in the late 80's, early 90's.

 

[joefish]

How many of you guys find hobbiest PO4 test kits useful?

I feel by the time they show any PO4 , you alread are having algae issues .

Maybe thats why I'm hung up on that algae thing though .:lol:

 

[Weatherman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477453#post6477453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
So is this where the "interface" between the aerobic and anaerobic sections of the DSB comes in? The aerobic bacteria nitrify and hand it off to the anaerobic for denitrification?

Nitrates start to get used by bacteria when there is an insufficient supply of oxygen to use, instead.

So, thereââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a zone of gradual transition, as you go deeper into a sand bed, between bacteria using oxygen as an electron receptor (aerobic respiration) and bacteria using nitrate as an electron receptor (denitrification). Both aerobic respiration and denitrification can take place side-by-side if the ratio of oxygen to nitrate is just right. If neither oxygen or nitrate are available, bacteria can start using other things, like iron, manganese and sulfate to decompose organic material, if those compounds are available.