Dsb's work, what makes them work best?

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477816#post6477816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
IMO and IME the signs that you know when it is not just a fauna cycle is when I see algae growing on any surface that is easily accessible by my clean up crew. If there is some minor amounts of algae growing in an area that my snails or fish can't reach I usually don't worry much about it as long as it isn't very noticeable. If I see signs of an upcoming problem I'm going to inventory my clean up crew to see if there are plenty of snails to deal with any algae, do some tests to see if I have any measurable phosphates or nitrates, and review my husbandry behavior for the last few weeks or months. (I.E. have a skipped a water change that needed done, when was the last time I changed out bulbs, etc.) Usually I can identify the fact that somehow I've let my snails dwindle down and only have a dozen turbo snails or realize that it has actually been 3 months since I did a water change or something like that. If I correct the issue I identify, I've always been able to get the algae back in line before it became much of a problem.

Man, did you ever hit the nail squarely on the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some people don't have enough clean-up crew, and others,
"heaven forbid" don't believe in them. :lol: :lol:

> barryhc :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[kbmdale]

I just purchaed a two little fishies phosreactor and phosban, but not because I'm having an issue mor for peace of mind I guess.. It will go on my new set-up.

 

[kbmdale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477903#post6477903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
How many of you guys find hobbiest PO4 test kits useful?

I feel by the time they show any PO4 , you alread are having algae issues .

Maybe thats why I'm hung up on that algae thing though .:lol:

thats because the test kit will only detect it in the water column and by that time there is already a buildup..So IMO yourright on about that.

 

[bertoni]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477946#post6477946 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
So, thereââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a zone of gradual transition, as you go deeper into a sand bed, between bacteria using oxygen as an electron receptor (aerobic respiration) and bacteria using nitrate as an electron receptor (denitrification). Both aerobic respiration and denitrification can take place side-by-side if the ratio of oxygen to nitrate is just right. If neither oxygen or nitrate are available, bacteria can start using other things, like iron, manganese and sulfate to decompose organic material, if those compounds are available.

We can go into more detail. Often, the organisms that perform denitrification are poisoned by oxygen, and even small amounts of it will stop denitrification. Other organisms that perform denitrification live as the interior layer of a 2-cell film, or as symbionts inside protists, etc. Termite digestion come to mind as a case of the second situation, I think.

I don't know how much denitrification is done in the oxic zone in our aquaria. I'll take a look at some references tonight, if I have a chance, to see what is said about marine environments in the articles that I have.

 

[bertoni]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6476986#post6476986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Which product goes down to 0.1? That's pretty close. I haven't seen one that fine.

I found Aragamax Sugar Sized Sand. Had no idea this product was there. Maybe it's new or improved? Before, the lowest I ever saw quoted was 0.2, which is far too coarse. Has anyone done a distribution analysis on a bag of this stuff? I might order one, if not.

In any case, thanks for the heads up!

 

[Amphiprionocellaris]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6477822#post6477822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
Amphiprionocellaris,
You are an extremist that's for sure ,Keep typing though .

It would probably help if I said that I make a distinction between "too much" and "more than I want." To me, the phrase "too much" means affecting tank health, whereas "more than I want" is, well, more than I want. But, I do tend to be an extremist anyway for algae acceptance. That's probably because one of my tanks just won't lose the algae, so I've learned to accept it.

originally posted by joefish
How many of you guys find hobbiest PO4 test kits useful?
I feel by the time they show any PO4 , you alread are having algae issues .
Maybe thats why I'm hung up on that algae thing though.

IMO the phosphate kits are fairly limited in their scope. First, they can only detect stuff in the water column. Second, they only detect one form of phsophate, and phosphorous exists in at least 4 forms. I think algae's presence is a better phsophate test.

You have to be careful, though, when blaming something for phosphate. In other words, phosphate might be coming from some other source besides a bad sand bed.

 

[CaptainCoral]

I think that's been around awhile, just switching names back and forth with oolitic. My marinedepot catalog has them listed as....

Oolitic select .5-1.02
Sugar-sized .2-1.2

I don't see .2 being coarse at all, now 2-4mm range yeah.

 

[joefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478177#post6478177 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprionocellaris


You have to be careful, though, when blaming something for phosphate. In other words, phosphate might be coming from some other source besides a bad sand bed.

In my case it was the last resort .

I never did say that algae automaticly means a failed DSB . It might be an indication of one though .

 

[Acipenser]

Well said!!

Well said!!

npaden,

IMO and IME the signs that you know when it is not just a fauna cycle is when I see algae growing on any surface that is easily accessible by my clean up crew. If there is some minor amounts of algae growing in an area that my snails or fish can't reach I usually don't worry much about it as long as it isn't very noticeable. If I see signs of an upcoming problem I'm going to inventory my clean up crew to see if there are plenty of snails to deal with any algae, do some tests to see if I have any measurable phosphates or nitrates, and review my husbandry behavior for the last few weeks or months. (I.E. have a skipped a water change that needed done, when was the last time I changed out bulbs, etc.) Usually I can identify the fact that somehow I've let my snails dwindle down and only have a dozen turbo snails or realize that it has actually been 3 months since I did a water change or something like that. If I correct the issue I identify, I've always been able to get the algae back in line before it became much of a problem.

Extremely well put. I think most of us if we took the time to actually look hard enough when something started to go out of whack would find that we were the cause, primarily from a lapse in husbandry or an accident.

Maybe we should discuss whats exceptable amounts then how much in a sps tank ? etc....

Joefish - I know you are going to hate my answer, and others seem to have said similar things, but I think it is up to the eye of the beholder. My dad loved to see a algae free spotless tank. I personally don't mind a little algae as long as it is not interfering with the corals I like to keep.

 

[Acipenser]

Phosphate issues.

Phosphate issues.

For all your phosphate questions, check out Randy's "The Reef Chemistry Forum." Practically everything you ever wanted to know about chemistry and probably a whole lot more. Randy is always personally answering questions and is an extremely valuable and knowledgable asset. I have learned so much from his forum!

 

[Weatherman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478049#post6478049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I don't know how much denitrification is done in the oxic zone in our aquaria.

My guess would be almost none.

Studies Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve read, concerning nitrification and denitrification in marine sediments, indicate that when both oxygen and nitrate are present, denitrification starts right around, or just a little above the depth where oxygen levels reach zero. The transition zone is very narrow.

 

[joefish]

Re: Well said!!

Re: Well said!!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478313#post6478313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Acipenser



Joefish - I know you are going to hate my answer, and others seem to have said similar things, but I think it is up to the eye of the beholder. My dad loved to see a algae free spotless tank. I personally don't mind a little algae as long as it is not interfering with the corals I like to keep.

Why would I hate your answer ?

I never said my way is the only way , or one size fits all .

I was just trying to prove a point , and I hope I did .

That if some kinds of algae are present so is PO4 , Po4 is not a good thing for some corals .

Hobby PO4 test kits realy don't work , and I'd rather use algae as a guide .

If your corals don't mind PO4 , and you like the look of algae , then set your tank up to do that .

 

[barryhc]

If you get right down to it, I'd like to see some stuff with a minimum at .15mm, and I can make a screen to get that as well.

Still what is it about fine sand that is just slightly larger than "mud", that represents a problem?

What critters won't be "supported", and is that going to significantly effect the "food chain" to the point of causing problems in our tanks?

Bertoni, you seem to prefer the mud, so why? And by all means, order that bag and tell us what's in it.

Thanks > barryhc

 

[Amphiprionocellaris]

Actually, a little algae might be a good thing, if it grows faster than phosphate is used. With the algae growing, it should concentrate the phsophate in the algae rather than the water. Combine that with good export (herbivory - which is now officially a word - or pruning), and you have a refugium concept, which is another thing that, IMO, really helps keep a successful DSB tank. That's a different approach than the "no algae at all" or "prevention" method, but IME it yields similar results.

 

[Amphiprionocellaris]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478449#post6478449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprionocellaris
Actually, a little algae might be a good thing, if it grows faster than phosphate is used.

Edit: that should be "faster than phosphate is produced." Typing too fast .

 

[Sindjin]

Man...

I step away for a few hours and BAM! five more pages.
Some great discussions, btw!

The mud thing scares me. Only because I think back to plant tanks and think: Mud, Iron, PO4, healthy plants.

 

[Weatherman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478467#post6478467 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprionocellaris
Edit: that should be "faster than phosphate is produced." Typing too fast .

Just a little administrative tidbit...

If you want to, you can edit your existing post to correct errors. I do that all the time. I think your post becomes permanent after 30 minutes.

 

[onthefly]

Hey Barry,

This sounds a bit strange ( the high flow ), but what particle size were you using? Those sand movers are a BIG plus. Maybe the critters you had didn't like the flow, and stayed in lower flow areas. Nassarius snails are excellent "movers" along with cucumbers.

Totally possible, like In wall said, could be a bunch of reasons!

What are "southdown grain sizes", and was this the material that got hard? Istill don't like the "mud" stuff, and I'm going to keep it out of my tank until its use is justified.

The silica stuff I used was the same sized grains as SD and NEVER solidified. It was very "active" too. I had lots of bubbles coming out of it....and before someone says it....it was nitrogen, not H2S!

.....sorry, I re-read post and it wasn't very clear

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478474#post6478474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sindjin
Man...

I step away for a few hours and BAM! five more pages.
Some great discussions, btw!

Isn't it great?

The mud thing scares me. Only because I think back to plant tanks and think: Mud, Iron, PO4, healthy plants.

That is my thought as well. Why not do this stuff in a refugium, if you think you must, where you can do maintanence easily.

Thanks > barryhc

 

[joefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6478449#post6478449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprionocellaris
Actually, a little algae might be a good thing, if it grows faster than phosphate is used. With the algae growing, it should concentrate the phsophate in the algae rather than the water. Combine that with good export (herbivory - which is now officially a word - or pruning), and you have a refugium concept, which is another thing that, IMO, really helps keep a successful DSB tank. That's a different approach than the "no algae at all" or "prevention" method, but IME it yields similar results.

A little hole in your theory if I might .

If algae cunsumes the PO4 , and fish and snails eat the algae . does the po4 not get put back into the sytsem . Unless you harvest it it will just keep cycling through the tank . Then add all the P that's in fish food .It will be like a snow ball effect . there has to be a better method then that .