Bonsai Boi
In Memoriam
This setup is simply incredible!
DSPS tank from Thailand (1000 gallon+)
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Moser
Active member
Very interesting. How do public aquaria quarantine hundreds if not thousands of fish? and how do they decontaminate once QT'd?. What is accepted length of QT and why?. How do they house such large QT systems?.
What is the accepted concentration of copper that will wipe any system of ich and prevent a recurrence?.
How do you know a fish is completely clear of ich?... presumed lifecycles do not guard against resistant strains!.....
How can public aquaria be certain they do not have any ich parasite in their systems at all?.... do they culture and test for example?
All very interesting...
Thanks
Mo
flying_dutchman
New member
Chingchai, I totally agree.
There's always some ick in the system, maybe not visible all the time but there is, and the fish are healthy. But when the fish get stressed BAM!
With cleaner shrimps/cleaner wrasses and favored conditions mentioned in post earlier the fish should be able to recover. JMO
There's always some ick in the system, maybe not visible all the time but there is, and the fish are healthy. But when the fish get stressed BAM!
With cleaner shrimps/cleaner wrasses and favored conditions mentioned in post earlier the fish should be able to recover. JMO
i was wondering what clams you have on the sand beed seems like mostly maximas and are there croceas there? im wondering because i just got a crocea and i know some about maximas but not really about croceas after my yellow tang at my last crocea i stuck to maximas but now i got a crocea and would he be happy on the sand i got strong lights but i was wondering because i heard that they have fine gills so sand sould possibly kill them if siphoned in.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I take it from your post that you are cynical of my claims. I can speak of the aquariums I worked with/for only, so if truly interetsed, contact your local aquarium, and ask them.
1) Aquarium maintain huge numbers of QT tanks. At the GA aquarium, they have a QT facility off site! Some display tanks are treated themselves, so become enormous treatment tanks in and of themselves. The issue is not nearly as difficult as you are implying. Different insitutions have different QT times.
2) When I worked with copper we dosed a target of 0.25 mg/L copper. We found this heavier than typical but not dangerous to most fish. This "copper resistant strain" of crypto you speak of, where is this documented? Or is it heresay? IMHO, this exist along with bigfoots and unicorns- only in fable. I believe such claims come from inadequate copper doseages, plain and simple. Copper treatment is CONFIRMED to be effective against cryptocaryon, provided the doseages are followed.
I hope this satiates your curiosity.
myerst2
Active member
In reality an ich outbreak in a 1,000 gallon reef would be horrible, but after speaking to a curator at one of the best aquariums in the states, a fluke outbrealk would be flukes. Most fish that aren't QT'd will have flukes and with no natural predators in a captibe reef, the end result is scary. Believe this display is a dream for most of us but again all the technolgy and money in the world can't make up for common sense. T
kapri G
New member
Did I die and go to Reef heaven, Thats the most amazing tank and setup I've seen in my life- Your determination to fufill your dream exceeds all expectations. I have been reading the posts for hours until my eyes wouldn't let me read anymore but i cant keep away. forget "Tank of the Month" - this is the "Tank of the Century" .
Congratulations on your hard endevour which has certainly paid off-
BTW can you buy me a tank like that....
Congratulations on your hard endevour which has certainly paid off-
BTW can you buy me a tank like that....
Whatever your point of view may be about QTing fishes, it is still YOUR point of view. I have been researching this for at least 5yrs now and this argument has been going on for at least that long with no real conclusive evidence in favor of either method. I know people who never qt and have a great track record. I know people who qt religiously and have ick breakouts regularly. I know people who constantly kill fish in qt. I know paranoid people that QTed for 6 months(me), treated with copper and hypo during that period, had the fish doing great, and broke out with ick within 2 weeks of addition to the display tank. My point is that no one has proven to my knowlegde, that ick is not always present in any given system. So we have to let each individual follow the path that is best for them. ChingChai has obviously done this before and it worked for him given that he has had most of these fish for quite some time now so he must do what he feels is right for him.
Great set up Ching
Great set up Ching
+1!
Ching (and Mo), I couldn't agree more. I have long subscribed to the pristine water philosophy. I agree that the size of the system also helps. I have never kept a nano, but I would imagine it must be much harder for sick fish to recover on their own in such a small system.
MrineLfRlz
Active member
thanks for starting a thread on a fantastic system!
great explanation detail and pics
great explanation detail and pics
Moser
Active member
Without wishing to detract from Chingchai's excellent thread too much, I wold like to say a couple of things.
1) Offsite QT systems are not practical and not cheap. I don't believe "EVERY" aquarium has these. If they are truly offsite, then how do you guarantee that the transport tanks are not in some way contaminated, indeed if I dropped a fish with Ich into one of these QT system's are you implying that it would wipe out the system??.. I don't believe practices in any aquariumcan guarantee such purity from contamination, given the throughput of staff etc etc. Different Aquariums having differning QT times sounds a bit like sorcery to me!!. How do they come up with QT times then??, best guess?.
2) I haven't seen anybody publish or quote any controlled trials comparing various copper doses in the ability to wipe ich from a system or a fish. So how was 025mg/L arrived at?... anecdote?? and how does the average hobbyist guarantee this level in their QT systems??? constantly???. Salifert tests don't cut it and what does "Heavier than typical" actually mean??. It's all well and good quoting some anecdotal theories, but the published evidence doesn't back it up from what I have read, but of course I may not be widely read enough, so would be happy for you to point me in the direction of level 1 evidence.ie I'd like to SEE your PUBLISHED evidence of CONFIRMATION and what it exactly MEANS.
Sorry to Hijack Chingchai, but this hobby is packed to the brim of anecdotal views and very little scientific basis. Knowledgable types should really back up their info with published scientific evidence, not disguised anecdote . I'm not saying they don't work. I am saying they aren't necessary in many many cases though.
So, in answer to your last point, no my curiosity has not been satiated.
Thanks
Mo
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I agree in apology of hijacking. I will repsond briefly, and would ask that if you would like like to continue our mutually respectful conversation by PM, I would be glad to.
You did not ask me how methods and techniques used by public aquariums can be applied to home aquaculture. You asked how public insitutions did it. I attempted to answer.
1). You are right, off site QT spaces are not cheap or easy. I merely stated they exist, in response to the elusion that public aquariums could not possibly QT hundreds, or even thousands on animals. Than can and do. You ask how they come up with their process and "gauantees"- the answer is policy and protocol. Can mistake happen? Sure, Can human error play a part? Sure. As it can in EVERY thing we do. No one is claiming different. However, policy and protocol and zoological facilities is establish to protrect despite this possibility. And when the staff follows the protocol, the plan works. Its that simple. Using the argumnet "hey someone could make a mistake", is rather a dull edge, because it can be applied to anything, anywhere. In counterpoint, I would ask you to show one humen operated action that I can make the same claim of "what if someone makes a mistake". As for "evidence", are you asking for soem literature stating copper kills Crypto? Because I can provide the refernces. It is established science! It has been studied, and proven, by many different sources. Heres just some sources I quickly located: Andrews et al, 1988, Bassleer, 1996, Gratzek et al, 1992, Noga, 2000, Untergasser, 1989. Do some reading. Duration of QT is establish from institution to instituion based on their level of comfort and throughness. But it is based off scientific study. Plain and simple.
I find it enormously comical that you are critical of misinformation and anecdote, and used that EXACT method in deducting the copper and quarantine are "snake oil". Probably the most studied, accepted, and instrinsically valuable method of livestock control established. As I mentioned earlier, it is anyones prerogative to choose not to use it, or to rely on other methods, but without questions, NO method has ever been found more useful and beneficial in disease control for certain ailments for teleosts than these methods. It is dumbfounding to me that it is being questioned for veracity.
fishuntbike
Member
I hope this QT issue is over, all I want is to enjoy ching's magnificent tank and all his updates and not to read off topic discussion. Please take it somewhere else. Thank you in advance
Moser
Active member
Agreed, no point in flogging this dead horse over and over.. there are no reported clinical trials on the use of copper, or QT, so why bother....we'd be going over the same arguments for months and without even knowing each others backgrounds!.
No further debate. Apologies to Chingchai!.
Mo
nineball
Active member
tonyespinoza
Premium Member
Fully agree - this is Ching's thread. Anyone who wants to discuss what's worked for them and what they consider critical technique is welcome to post a thread on this site and expound all they want. The truth is everyone who criticized Ching's approach doesn't have an FTS that could hold a candle to the RESULTS he's achieved here. I think he deserves respect for what he's accomplished in the hobby. Perhaps those of you who disagree should "watch and learn".
