Duplex sump concept
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mr.wilson
.Registered Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8729638#post8729638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H20ENG
FYI, its PETER Escobal.
Pablo EscobaR was the cocaine kingpin
The Escobal book is great, though a little thick on the math for my crusty head
Great thread! Thanks for sharing!
I stand corrected. I knew it was P.R. Escobal, so I did a google search and was fed misinformation.
I just checked the preface, it's actually "Pedro Ramon Escobal" for the record, but it looks like he goes by Peter.
You're right about that math, it's another language in itself.
ohclereef01
Member
I have two questions with the design overall and some comments made.
-if a simple rubbermaid were used for the removable sand bed (instead of a custom acrylic cube) there would not be an "exact" fit leaving areas of near "stagnet" water (around the edges of the "tub") no? - what would develop in these areas? consequences?
-between the skimmer and return pump zone -where the sand and benthic zones are - would it be beneficial to leave a section of egg-crate along the entire bottom and drilling the center of the area for a drain, to drain possibly half a gal of water every few months to remove excess detritus buildup? - would this be helpful or harmful?
great thread!
-if a simple rubbermaid were used for the removable sand bed (instead of a custom acrylic cube) there would not be an "exact" fit leaving areas of near "stagnet" water (around the edges of the "tub") no? - what would develop in these areas? consequences?
-between the skimmer and return pump zone -where the sand and benthic zones are - would it be beneficial to leave a section of egg-crate along the entire bottom and drilling the center of the area for a drain, to drain possibly half a gal of water every few months to remove excess detritus buildup? - would this be helpful or harmful?
great thread!
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The gaps around the container aren't a problem. The sump is an area of oxygen saturation. The protein skimmer effluent has a high redox potential so anoxic zones are unlikely. This is why we need to make sure the sandbed is deep enough to have anaerobic zones for bacteria. Benthic invertebrates will thrive in the gaps around the sand tray.
Some denitrifying bacteria (pseudomonas) live aerobically, but they're in the minority. I've noticed in my 24" DSB that the top 2" is white sand, and the lower levels are darker. If your sand bed is only 4" deep, you will only have 2" of anoxic (low oxygen) conditions. I have a perforated access tube in the 24" deep DSB, and hope to find how much of it is aerobic, anoxic and hypoxic with my dissolved oxygen tester. Each level offers a unique home to different beneficial bacteria and critters.
There's a huge thread on "rapid wasting" here on RC. Rapid wasting is the practice you mentioned, of quickly draining excess detritus. There are some mechanical stumbling block to this practice. Eggcrate can trap detritus and your drain will tend to pull from above the substrate. rather than uniformly across the bottom.
Detrital build-up depends greatly on the design of your system. If you use a sand bed in your overflow with a few hermit crabs, urchin and starfish, you will be able to prefilter some POC (particulate organic carbon). If your skimmer is fed directly by the overflow, this too will separate POC. An aiptasia zone appears to be the most efficient biological method of POC reduction and removal, but xenia, star polyps, or bubble anemones could be used if you're aiptasia-phobic. Take a look at the developments of bubble anemone cloning, it may prove to be a more safe and profitable method than aiptasia culture.
The use of chaeto rather than caulerpa will reduce macro algae breakdown, and the shallow, rapid growth, refugium will also limit detritus production within the Duplex sump. Copepods and amphipods will consume detritus in the refugium and benthic zone. Fan worms also convert detritus to an inert state when they make tube casings.
In a strange way, tube worms are a form of detritus reduction and export. I've often wondered if you could place a couple dozen large feather dusters in the sump and harvest their tube every month or so. They stop building their tube once it becomes stable. removal of the tube causes them to get back to detritus conversion. It would be interesting to see a bioassay on the contents of these casings. Terrestrial plant growers use earth worm casings as a soil supplement due to the extremely high nutrient and trace element (heavy metal) content. I think we may benefit from the reverse process.
The benthic zone is full of detrivores, so reduction should match production and import. If your system falls out of balance and detritus builds-up, it may not be the end of the world, as you have nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria within the sand bed.
In summary; detritus build-up in the sump can be kept in check through mechanical filtration and "zone defense" in the overflow, aiptasia zone, protein skimmer, refugium zone, and benthic zone. having a removable eggcrate top for each zone makes it possible to get in there with a siphon or turkey baster, the latter being my preferred method.
I try not to have eggcrate right on the bottom, as it makes it harder to remove detritus.
cilyjr
Active member
i saw shawns vid the end of october and decided to use some of his ideas. it has been about 2 full months and i am finally starting to see the little critters i have been waiting for. i added LR rubble and about 4 cups of sand that i know had bristol worms and other critters (to get a jump start) and when i added the LR rubble 2 bluelegs hiched in. i also put 3 medium pices of LR (about 4-5 inches each) in mostly because i had nowhere else for them. my chaeto has doubled in size since i got it and just about covers the entire top half now.
here is an over all shot. excuse the salt creep.
i didn't want to use aptasia, but since i now have majano i figure i will let him be in the sump and only attack my display tank population. also there is a single glove polyp that found his way into the sump and attached to a piece of LR i will let him be. i am also planing on taking my first harvest of gloves and placing them in the sump. for further bio-mechicanal filtration.
anyway i will post my progress in the future!
here is an over all shot. excuse the salt creep.
i didn't want to use aptasia, but since i now have majano i figure i will let him be in the sump and only attack my display tank population. also there is a single glove polyp that found his way into the sump and attached to a piece of LR i will let him be. i am also planing on taking my first harvest of gloves and placing them in the sump. for further bio-mechicanal filtration.
anyway i will post my progress in the future!
perpetual98
New member
Awesome! I just got my tank "wet" 2 days ago.
Here's a couple pictures for you:
Here's a couple pictures for you:
Driftwood
New member
THis is a 75 Gallon sump I built for a friends 220 tank. I used some eggcrate to add a benthic zone.
This is my 30 gallon sump:
A closeup of the refuge:
I've been using this for awhile now and can say I like it so far. There are tons of pods and shrimp looking things swimming around in there now. It definitely provides more of a habitat for the pods then a bare sandbed.
Dave
This is my 30 gallon sump:
A closeup of the refuge:
I've been using this for awhile now and can say I like it so far. There are tons of pods and shrimp looking things swimming around in there now. It definitely provides more of a habitat for the pods then a bare sandbed.
Dave
Indermark
New member
This is so great that more people are posting about this topic. I have my 20 gallon long sump finished ( i think). I had some problems when I had some baffles accidently broken. So I had to use a piece of acrylic that I had to alter to fit in my sump. I have three glass baffles at one end of the tank and one baffle at the other end. I'm trying to decide where I should but my skimmer and return pump. any suggestions? I was thinking that the protein skimmer should have the one baffle and then have the other three baffles before the return pump.
Ryan
Ryan
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The protein skimmer works best if it is fed water directly from the overflow box. The second best way is to have the skimmer in one section separated by a divider, with the skimmer effluent moving water to the other side of the divider toward the duplex section. An equal number of GPH flowing through the skimmer as flowing through the sump (sump pump must equal volume of skimmer pump) will assure that basically all of the water that enters the sump is processed by the skimmer only once. Remember to make the skimmer section big enough to hold a larger skimmer, should you decide to upgrade in the future.
The return pump belongs at the opposite end of the sump. This is a good area to locate chemical filtration, as it is relatively free of detritus. You are correct about the baffle location. By locating the three baffles at the end, just before the return pump, it assures that bubbles from the skimmer and tank drain are minimized.
ohclereef01
Member
I see some people have 2 drops into their tank with the return pump in the middle. A limited flow is sent to the side opposite the skimmer for the "fuge" section. True there are things not processed by the skimmer to be processed in the fuge - is this bad? I guess that if all or most water has been processed by the skimmer the fuge section would not have as many nutrients to process - good right? - answered my own question?
- How big do i want to make each section of the sump?
1- skimmer - large enough to expand to a larger skim? by how much? im guessing 15% of the tank
- largest section the "fuge" for alge egg crate and a rubbermade tub for DSB then
- the last section something similar to the first section? for auto auto-top off, temp probe, heaters, and return pump..
- How big do i want to make each section of the sump?
1- skimmer - large enough to expand to a larger skim? by how much? im guessing 15% of the tank
- largest section the "fuge" for alge egg crate and a rubbermade tub for DSB then
- the last section something similar to the first section? for auto auto-top off, temp probe, heaters, and return pump..
ohclereef01
Member
-note to self- don't try to post at 5:30am
6Speed
Zardoz
Right now I have my sump divided into 3 compartments; first skimmer, second fuge, third return. I have 2 baffles between the skimmer/fuge, and one between the fuge/return. The sump is a 30 gallon, and the fuge is packed with cheato. I did not realise how important it was to remove the stuff every week or so...and I've been running my fuge light 24/7. :eek1: I removed a large chunk of cheato from the bottom of the ball, and noticed that there is a 1/4" layer of ditritus sitting ontop of the sandbed and rubble (under all the macro). I couldn't believe it. So now it's time to make some changes. 
Is it ok if I run the fuge light on a reverse timer - basically on when the display lights are off.
Also, in your demo, it did not appear that there were any glass baffles in the sump...? Should I have baffles? How do you take care of micro bubbles that enter either through water falling down the display drain, or from skimmer output? Also, since the skimmer is dumping directly into the fuge, how do you avoid microbubbles there?
One last question, if you use a glass baffle on either side to seperate the skimmer/fuge/return, should you leave a ~1" space between the glass and eggcrate, or jam the eggcrate right up to the baffle?
Is it ok if I run the fuge light on a reverse timer - basically on when the display lights are off.
Also, in your demo, it did not appear that there were any glass baffles in the sump...? Should I have baffles? How do you take care of micro bubbles that enter either through water falling down the display drain, or from skimmer output? Also, since the skimmer is dumping directly into the fuge, how do you avoid microbubbles there?
One last question, if you use a glass baffle on either side to seperate the skimmer/fuge/return, should you leave a ~1" space between the glass and eggcrate, or jam the eggcrate right up to the baffle?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9019275#post9019275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 6Speed
Right now I have my sump divided into 3 compartments; first skimmer, second fuge, third return. I have 2 baffles between the skimmer/fuge, and one between the fuge/return. The sump is a 30 gallon, and the fuge is packed with cheato. I did not realise how important it was to remove the stuff every week or so...and I've been running my fuge light 24/7. :eek1: I removed a large chunk of cheato from the bottom of the ball, and noticed that there is a 1/4" layer of ditritus sitting ontop of the sandbed and rubble (under all the macro). I couldn't believe it. So now it's time to make some changes.
Is it ok if I run the fuge light on a reverse timer - basically on when the display lights are off.
Also, in your demo, it did not appear that there were any glass baffles in the sump...? Should I have baffles? How do you take care of micro bubbles that enter either through water falling down the display drain, or from skimmer output? Also, since the skimmer is dumping directly into the fuge, how do you avoid micro-bubbles there?
One last question, if you use a glass baffle on either side to separate the skimmer/fuge/return, should you leave a ~1" space between the glass and eggcrate, or jam the eggcrate right up to the baffle?
1) I've found that growing macro-algae in shallow areas eliminates the major causes of sexual reproduction or crashing, which are stress, photo-period changes triggered by shadowing overgrowth, over-crowding, and old age. Macro-algae reproduces when it senses season changes or feels that its' existence is threatened. By removing these threats, it re-opens the possibility of using faster growing caulerpa varieties with anti-bacterial properties, such as C. Prolifera, C. Mexicana, and C. Racemosa. Chaetomorpha is great if you're looking for stability, but it just doesn't perform (grow) like caulerpa does. I still like Gracilaria. It's slow growing but it's the best fish food of the ones I know of.
2) A reverse photo period as you suggest will help regulate day and night PH, via photosynthetic activity, so yes it's a good idea.
3) Baffles aid in bubble popping but are less necessary if the water is passing through macro algae. They certainly don't hurt. My dividers are more make-shift so they can adapt easily to design changes.
4) Micro-bubbles can damage coral tissue and cause nitrogen bubble disease in fish, but they don't have much negative impact on algae. They are minimized as they pass through the refugium. Benthic invertebrates haven't evolved with much exposure to bubbles, but the lower benthic zone will see few if any bubbles as only passive flow reaches it, and it has to travel through algae, rubble, and egg-crate to get there.
5) You will likely need some space in order to fit the egg-crate structure in place, and remove a top panel to gain access in the future. It's not a detritus trap or anaerobic issue.
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