Duplex sump concept

[cilyjr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9141777#post9141777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dendro982
Let the low life (me with my low level systems) make some noise:


Will it need the piece of solid acrylic (at the side of the side eggcrate) - to block higher flow from benthic zone, allowing it to flow freely only through macroalgae? Some analog of baffle, only for reducing flow, not the air bubbles.

i have a solid piece of acrylic to slow flow it is only halfway up from the bottom to the water line. higher rate of flow passes through my chaeto and calupera but the lower area moves much slower.


on a side note i have found 4 aptasia in my sump. and since Mr. Wilson believes this to be beneficial i will allow them to stay. if i start finding them in the display i am gonna inject them, but i am curious to see if the "they remain happy in one area they don't move" theory has some merit. i have seen evidence in a members tank of my local club to support this his "aptasia farm" is in an overflow and they remain there and he has none in the display.

 

[dendro982]

i have a solid piece of acrylic to slow flow it is only halfway up from the bottom to the water line. higher rate of flow passes through my chaeto and calupera but the lower area moves much slower.

So, it's way to go. Thanks!

I also have empty 20g XH tank (like 2 10g tanks, one on the top of another, small footprint) with the stand, could use it too for this kind of benthic refugium, but doubt it it will be cleanable (reachable) at the bottom - without removing all of the content, and turnicates should not appreciate even 15 min without water in 70F room...

If anyone have idea how to use it, including should be it high duplex or quadruplex in height - please advice.

 

[Qcks]

:rollface:

So, after reading into this a bit more i had an idea.

Could halimeda under high flow (turbulent water) conditions be used to create a living fluid barrier?

I've seen pictures of halimeda forming thick sheets in high flow situations, much in the same way acropora coral can.

I realize the idea has some problems... but considering i've had little sleep, i'm sure y'all out there are capable of picking at it a bit more critically then me.

The first problem that struck me was the halimeda becoming light starved. i think that can be mitigated in this particular setup because the depth that is required by the macro algae partition isn't very deep, and the chaeto is suppose to be thin. Additionally the problem could be further mitigated if gracillias was used instead of chaeto. The difference in photosynthetic pigmentation may allow more usable light to penitrate down to the halimeda partition.

The next problem i can think of would be the eventual ability (or inability, as it were) of the halimeda in reducing the flow of the water. The only solution i can think of would be to use an urchin. The Urchin's constant grazing would create small opening that water could pass through, as well as keep the halimeda trimmed. The only problem with that idea is that the halimeda patch would have to be large enough that the urchin could continously graze without completely destroying the barrier. Meaning that the growth of the halimeda would have to be rapid enough to both out grow the grazing of the urchin, and maintain it's structural functionality.

Thoughts?

 

[dendro982]

Good idea, for lesser light can be used blue ochtodes algae, the only minus I could see is the width of this barrier, acrylic is a lot thinner, but for these who have space - why not.

 

[AfAqua]

Great to see how this thread is moving forward. Anyone using cryptic zones in sumps of BB tanks?

 

[dendro982]

Anyone using cryptic zones in sumps of BB tanks?

I'm using an approximation of it - in the sump of 90g BB tank - just LR rubble behind the return pump, some with selected life, like sponges (particularly fuzzy lilac on the photo above). It receives some diffused light from refugium. Had this for ~4 months, no noticeable growth or seeding bare LR rubble, Q-tip sponges only.

 

[akbuuur]

bumpo

 

[mr.wilson]

Mangrove trees are well documented as slow growers with a slow nutrient uptake. They are however effective in large numbers or if allowed to grow to a decent size. The latter may be difficult in a standard aquarium cabinet, but remote filters and mangroves grown at the back of the tank have some growing room.

I like mangroves due to the fact that they complete the transition from land to sea, and are a vital part of the natural ecosystem. If we are to successfully replicate a natural reef, we should try to use as many natural building blocks as possible. Since seagulls and seals are prohibitive, I'll make do with mangrove trees.

I grow them in soil for about six months to get a good head start (this adds a few more leaves and about 6" of height. They are then pushed into the egg-crate panel of the refugium, at the back where they don't impede light to the macro-algae. After a few months, the root system becomes quite extensive, and the can be raised to allow the roots to harden and give the mangrove the distinctive legs they are known for. If you have room, keep lifting them a few inches every couple of months.

The network of roots acts as additional lattice for benthic invertebrates to populate. The roots offer a secondary nutrient source for beneficial bacteria and invertebrates. I don't know the extent of the interplay of the micro-organisms with the root system, but it must be a better home than plastic panels. It's like the difference between copepod populations in macro-algae vs. a sponge media. Plant and algae are always a superior media to plastic or rock/sand, and mangrove roots offer incomparable stability.

Here's a picture of a somewhat established Duplex system. The egg-crate structure continues across the front and back for greater stability, but impedes with photography. The water travels from right to left. Note the taller egg-crate panels on the ends to keep macro algae in check, when the sump water level rises with a power outage.

Here's a top view before macro algae harvest. You can see that caulerpa and sargassum have left chaetomorpha and gracilaria in the dust. The stable growing conditions don't cause crashes, so I don't mind faster growing, more efficient varieties.

This is what it looks after a harvest. You can see the rubble rock better, and it allows for some light penetration for a better photo of the lower level of the Duplex.

Here are some close ups of the benthic zone. Sorry, no macro lens yet. many of the tunicates and fan worms don't show up in the pictures, but they are there. The mangrove roots contribute a significant amount of surface area and structure for benthic invertebrate sites and nutrition. There is some minor detrital buildup, but not much considering the 9 month age of the aquarium, and macro algae farm above. I have never serviced the lower benthic zone to date. The brown or white tubes in the foreground are soft & hard tube worms, not mangrove roots.

To be continued.

 

[mr.wilson]

Continued

Whenever I find a predator like this green serpent star, I throw it in the skimmer/aiptasia zone. They are voracious detrivores, able to consume stray food from the display.

A bare bottom tank would benefit greatly from a Benthic zone of any type. The life lost in the bare bottom can be redeemed in a more efficient remote location. I myself prefer a sand bed in the display. A remote benthic zone could be located anywhere and would function well in a rubbermaid container as someone suggested. Live rock is a great way to get one started, but egg-crate is a more accommodating home for sessile (stationary) filter-feeder, invertebrates.

As far as seeding goes, the tank above has been left to its' own devices. The placement of populated rocks in the benthic zone would help the cause. I would leave the rock there for a month, then swap it with a rock with different sponges & tunicates etc.

The aiptasia seem to stay put. I haven't found any in the display tanks of the five tanks that currently have them in the filter. I use copperband butterflies and peppermint shrimp for aesthetic reasons as well as a fail safe. Perhaps they search and destroy them before I notice them in the display.

Thanks for posting the pics Dendro. Are they from your tank? The bubbles may be a limiting factor for tunicates and sponges. Try to isolate and eliminate the cause.

 

[C3]

Mr. Wilson:
I'm planning my new proyect...
Is a 160lts aquarium.... I also buyed the acrilic for the sump but i didn't constructed yet....

And......I see your video and have a couple of questions....

- Why can I asume that the flow in the bentic zone will be minor than in the refugium zone??

- About the aiptaxia zone I don't understand very well how it's suited in the sump... it's in the output of the skimmer??

- I think that the return pump NEEDS a prefilter but i want to avoid that because it's I don't whant to raise the maintenance of my tank. Any suggestion?? --> i think that the bubble trap could work

Some upgrades that I'm planning for my "Duplex" Sump are:
- Add a bubble trap
- Use an external pump to reduce the heat

Beacuse of this I've made 2 models so you can tell me wich one should work better or if both wouldn't work, what can i upgrade, etc...

this are the two models:
with the bubble trap before the refugium/bentic zone

with the bubble trap after the refugium/bentic zone

Other think that i didn't think before was the flow.... should it work with the flow of this two bombs or it's too much??

Thx

C3

PD: I already buyed the acrilic so the size of the box can't be changed but the baffles can be resized

 

[C3]

I forgot......
can you tell me 2 things....
- the size of the eggcrate (the size of the holes)
- the space i may let betwen the verticals

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9161965#post9161965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by C3
Mr. Wilson:
I'm planning my new proyect...
Is a 160lts aquarium.... I also buyed the acrilic for the sump but i didn't constructed yet....

And......I see your video and have a couple of questions....

- Why can I asume that the flow in the bentic zone will be minor than in the refugium zone??

- About the aiptaxia zone I don't understand very well how it's suited in the sump... it's in the output of the skimmer??

- I think that the return pump NEEDS a prefilter but i want to avoid that because it's I don't whant to raise the maintenance of my tank. Any suggestion?? --> i think that the bubble trap could work

Some upgrades that I'm planning for my "Duplex" Sump are:
- Add a bubble trap
- Use an external pump to reduce the heat

Beacuse of this I've made 2 models so you can tell me wich one should work better or if both wouldn't work, what can i upgrade, etc...

this are the two models:
with the bubble trap before the refugium/bentic zone

with the bubble trap after the refugium/bentic zone

Other think that i didn't think before was the flow.... should it work with the flow of this two bombs or it's too much??

Thx

C3

PD: I already buyed the acrilic so the size of the box can't be changed but the baffles can be resized

It's great to add Chile to the list of contributors. We'll have to get a map going soon.

The flow in the lower benthic zone is minimized by the fact that the water enters the above refugium zone and will travel the path of least resistance. In our case the easiest path is to travel horizontally, bypassing the lower benthic zone. The water would have to travel through macro-algae, rubble rock, and egg-crate to make it down to the benthic zone.

Each zone is located where it fits best in each application. Many of my aquariums have overflow boxes and areas around the skimmer that are not being used. nature populates these areas with cleaner animals, one of which being aiptasia, providing there is sufficient light. The aiptasia can be replaced with a number of other similar bio-mechanical filter organisms (colonial polyps, starfish, hermit crabs urchins etc.). I relocate any non-reef invertebrates I find (hitchhikers) in this zone. Aggressive invertebrates like hermit crabs wreak havoc in the display, but make good janitors in the void spaces of the sump.

The area around the protein skimmer is one of those void spaces. I locate the protein skimmer in the sump to catch drips and overflows. Most sumps are 18-24" wide while skimmers are 8-12" wide. This leaves lots of room for cleaners like aiptasia. You just need to add a light or make sure the refugium light covers that area as well.

I use external pump wherever possible. The tank in the video was low budget, so it was an exception. A mechanical filter is okay at the start of the Duplex filter, but should be excluded from the pump intake. A prefilter on the pump intake would not allow for zooplankton export to the display tank. There is very little detritus in the final stages to worry about anyway.

The refugium and benthic zones themselves, work to diffuse stray bubbles, so dividers aren't necessary. I would try to find Velocity T3 or T4 titanium pumps instead of Danner magdrives. Velocity pumps are whisper quiet external pumps.

Try to run the display tank drain directly into the protein skimmer if the design will allow for it. If you cannot do this, have the skimmer effluent discharge the water on the other side of the first divider. If the sump pump is moving the same amount of water as the skimmer, then the skimmer will only process the water once, and new water will enter to be filtered.

The first design is better because your skimmer pump is smaller than the return pump. This means that water will be entering the skimmer zone at a faster rate, than it can be skimmed, so bubbles may develop from the drain line.

Macro-algae isn't adversely affected by bubbles, and the bubbles will not migrate down to the benthic zone where they would cause problems. The dividers won't hurt, but they aren't needed for the final section before the return pump.

Do you have any interesting marine fish in your part of Chile? As the worlds longest country, you cover quite a few climate zones.

 

[dendro982]

the space i may let betwen the verticals

Should be in this thread earlier - a couple of inches, up to 3".
The eggcrate, available here, has ~1/2" holes.

Any input on a use of the deep tanks (24" deep)? Cleanability, in particular. Previous setup:


Turnicates and bubbles - I had no air bubbles at all (side sump, 7-8" water level),

until the last week, when I added "water well" container for a skimmer and raised water level to 9.5"

The photos are from my tanks, some are are hitchhikers on a LR (all tanks are well fed), but most are bought separately - with corals, as a sponges ($15), or, if coral died during shipping, at the cost of LR ($8). Just have to watch closely the stores, that have rock wall displays (vs. frag shelves).

So, seeding is just placing the rock with a lot of life onto horizontal eggcrate, under macroalgae?

Will mangroves require additional source of light - above the light for macroalgae, how strong should this light be?

 

[mr.wilson]

I try to give them their own light so the macro-algae doesn't lose out. I use the same 27 watt 6500k compact fluorescent twist bulbs ($6.00-Home Depot) in an aluminum reflector ($12.00-Ikea).

I've incorporated removable top panels to add rock and inverts. The closer to the bottom zone, the better for rock placement. Some benthic inverts will spread while others will reproduce sexually.

 

[Driftwood]

This is a 10 gallon sump for a 10 gallon nano tank I'm setting up.

I put a small eggcrate area above a 3 inch sandbed. I don't have any rubble or macro yet. I put a few pieces of LR in there for now.

Mr Wilson, I really appreciate those pictures. The removable top is such a good idea too, easy way too add stuff!

Dave

 

[Redstratplayer]

Thanks for the info mr.wilson

I saw a pic in national georaphic sp? about mangroves and it had a under water pic. of mangrove roots coverd in sea squirts and sponges.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9166496#post9166496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Redstratplayer
Thanks for the info mr.wilson

I saw a pic in national georaphic sp? about mangroves and it had a under water pic. of mangrove roots coverd in sea squirts and sponges.

There you go, another example of life mimicking our art.

 

[TekCat]

Maybe I've missed something. What is the purpose of the sand bed in the cryptic zone? I thought this is where sponges and stuff live and multiply. They do not need sand per se.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you, Mr. Wilson!

 

[Driftwood]

TekCat: The sandbed isn't for the benthic critters and doesn't really have anything to do with the duplex, except to show that both a DSB and a duplex can live together in a sump system.

Lol @ life mimicking our art.

Dave