Duplex sump concept

This is the mesh tube I'm talking about. It's available in different hole sizes from a few different aquarium suppliers (Pentair uses it in their media filters). http://www.tenax.net/industry/rigid_tubes.htm or http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/821/Mesh-Tubes-Plastic/screen/0

The pipes/tubes come in standard PVC sizes so you can use end caps to close them off to keep sand in them. They could be filled with sand and a series of them could be put vertically in a tall overflow box. It's one way of allowing bacteria to populate without introducing detrital buildup. A 1" dia pipe will have a significant oxic layer with virtually no anoxic zone. The passive flow past the mesh pipes provide enough exposure to the bacteria within the sand pipes.

The pipes will work in a similar fashion to live rock except with more void space and viable surface area for denitrifying bacteria.
 
This is the mesh tube I'm talking about. It's available in different hole sizes from a few different aquarium suppliers (Pentair uses it in their media filters). http://www.tenax.net/industry/rigid_tubes.htm or http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/821/Mesh-Tubes-Plastic/screen/0

The pipes/tubes come in standard PVC sizes so you can use end caps to close them off to keep sand in them. They could be filled with sand and a series of them could be put vertically in a tall overflow box. It's one way of allowing bacteria to populate without introducing detrital buildup. A 1" dia pipe will have a significant oxic layer with virtually no anoxic zone. The passive flow past the mesh pipes provide enough exposure to the bacteria within the sand pipes.

The pipes will work in a similar fashion to live rock except with more void space and viable surface area for denitrifying bacteria.

I've researched the anoxic zone quite extensively and have found collectively that even 1/4-1/2" can create an anoxic zone. Why does everyone have such concerns about oxygen deprived zones and detritus? I know the reason for detritus, as some are concerned with nitrates. I'm in the other group that is ADDING nitrates by means of KNO3. As for anoxic zones, I'm not concerned with the sand. The rock creates considerable hydrogen sulfide and combined with the sand bed would this be detrimental.....? I don't think so, as others' have VERY old systems with no 'old tank syndrome'. My clowns, nassarius snails & powrheads also do a good job of turning over the bed.

Just my experience and understanding from many articles from experienced reefers.
 
Yes, bacteria will quickly deplete oxygen and turn sand from oxic to anoxic within as little as 1/4". My point was that the oxic layer is more active in denitrification so a series of 1" dia pipes will be predominantly oxic in nature.

I don't have a problem with a little detritus, as this is where nitrifying and bacteria grows. As long as detritus breaks down at the same rate as it accumulates, it's just bound nutrients. It's only excess nutrients we need to worry about.
 
Yes, bacteria will quickly deplete oxygen and turn sand from oxic to anoxic within as little as 1/4". My point was that the oxic layer is more active in denitrification so a series of 1" dia pipes will be predominantly oxic in nature.

I don't have a problem with a little detritus, as this is where nitrifying and bacteria grows. As long as detritus breaks down at the same rate as it accumulates, it's just bound nutrients. It's only excess nutrients we need to worry about.

I could see in a heavy bioload the concern for near max efficiency for denitrification. I'm in the group that has such a low bioload, I'm literally throwing handfuls of foods, adding KNO3 & letting detritus build-up for my system to offset the <1ppm NO3 and undetectable PO4. This is in hopes of improving coral colors while keeping cyano at bay by a turf scrubber. It's amazing how different systems can react to different styles and methods of filtration.

I will say to get a benthic/cryptic zone to become prolific with sponges and tubeworms the system truly needs considerable particulate matter. My worms have only taken off since increasing feedings to roughly 1-2 eggcrate square-sized portions of food PER DAY for a 58gal w/ 20gal sump (~50 total gallons of water).
 
Your return pump should match your skimmer pump output. You can tee a line off that bleeds back into your sump and perhaps goes through your carbon again.

You probably don't need the bubble trap because the algae growing at the surface of the refugium will diffuse the bubbles.

If you are tight for vertical space, move the sand bed into the overflow box in the tank if you have one. It has been proven that the oxic layer (at or near the surface) of sand beds are the most productive in nitrate reduction. You can use a "breather tube" or tubes to create a greater oxic layer(s). This is an older article, but the science hasn't changed http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/eb/index.php and part two http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/eb/feature/index.php or Rob Toonen's look at plenums http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part1.htm

It may even prove to be more efficient to put the sand in the perforated tubes, and let the water circulate around it, rather than use the perforated tubes to hold the aerated water.

This is the mesh tube I'm talking about. It's available in different hole sizes from a few different aquarium suppliers (Pentair uses it in their media filters). http://www.tenax.net/industry/rigid_tubes.htm or http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/821/Mesh-Tubes-Plastic/screen/0

The pipes/tubes come in standard PVC sizes so you can use end caps to close them off to keep sand in them. They could be filled with sand and a series of them could be put vertically in a tall overflow box. It's one way of allowing bacteria to populate without introducing detrital buildup. A 1" dia pipe will have a significant oxic layer with virtually no anoxic zone. The passive flow past the mesh pipes provide enough exposure to the bacteria within the sand pipes.

The pipes will work in a similar fashion to live rock except with more void space and viable surface area for denitrifying bacteria.

Thank you for your time. Nice idea about the tube. I never seen it before but I am going to test it. I think that we can't use sugar size sand :lmao: . Right now I am sketching a sump.
 
mr.wilson said:
I recently set up a 55 gallon drum as a settling container and extra water volume for a 100 gallon display tank. The idea was the water drained from the display tank into a 55 gallon drum, ten drained into the sump where there was a duplex filter system. The detritus was supposed to settle in the bottom of the drum where it could be siphoned out. It's been two years and there still isn't any detritus settled at the bottom. It's probably the only place in the system that has no detritus:) What the 55 gallon drum does have is tube worms, tunicates, and sponges covering the entire inner surface.
Hello Shawn,

Good to have your input on the forum! Last time I talked with you was back at WTR pre fish quite awhile ago.

So in this setup ... did you prefilter the incoming water (in to the drum) or was it just raw overflow water?

I will be doing the same arrangement and was going to prefilter the water to remove the large chunks? (using a sock).

I figured if I did not ... it would be just like having a 55 gallon overflow that would settle everything and thus would have huge potential to have lots of detritus (too much) and apitasia as there would be lots of food.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hello Shawn,

Good to have your input on the forum! Last time I talked with you was back at WTR pre fish quite awhile ago.

So in this setup ... did you prefilter the incoming water (in to the drum) or was it just raw overflow water?

I will be doing the same arrangement and was going to prefilter the water to remove the large chunks? (using a sock).

I figured if I did not ... it would be just like having a 55 gallon overflow that would settle everything and thus would have huge potential to have lots of detritus (too much) and apitasia as there would be lots of food.

Cheers,
Bruce

Hi Bruce, good to hear from you again.

The original design for the drums had a 5 gallon bucket on top of the first drum with a 2" bulkhead on the bottom. There was a 2" standpipe in the bucket with large holes drilled in it. Filter floss was wrapped around the pipe so all incoming water had to go through it. If the floss plugged, the water would overflow over the top of the 2" standpipe.

The floss wasn't convenient to change due to the bucket lid and two 1" drains, so I dismantled that part just recently. That's when I took a look inside to see how much detritus I had collected with my settling drum - virtually none.

If I added a bypass line to the second drum from both 1" drains, so I could put the bucket back in. Otherwise, a filter sock would work, but they tend to plug up too quickly for my liking. Even a floating sponge would do the trick.

Alternatively, a bucket could be placed within the drum with holes drilled into the sides. As water exits the bucket, it would go through a layer of floss or sponge. I prefer sponge because it can be squeezed out and reused. As the sponge/floss plugs the water level and drain point in the bucket rises. Worst case scenario, the water flows over the top of the bucket, bypassing the mechanical filter.
 
After some initial startup and (re)building of my tank, witch I started up sometime earlier this year; I'm ready to post some of my results.

Some information for starters, overflow > deltec 902 skimmer > filter sock > wet/dry (bioballs and ceramics) > sump.

Due to my laziness I started up this (3months old) without any form of light.
Its just a square platic container about 80x60cm (tired of translating everything to imperials and us citizens ought to join the rest of the world :D),
filled with aquaroche ceramics. One corner contains a acrylic tube witch contain the sock, wet/dry and a baffle for forcing the water to the surface (it was initially meant for a bubble trap).

Each time I cleaned out the socks I put every living thing I found into the sump, be it crabs, pods or snails ( the clown I shuffled to the dp after I found her ;) ).
I did some checkup a few weeks ago and all the rocks were full of stuff, say... 70% of it were sponges of different kinds, lots of lots of them.
Of course I had to add some light and macro algae witch in turn made the sponges disappear from the top of the rocks and other stuff take over, mostly some kind of algae witch looks nasty imho. I believe an angel would have a field day in my basement.
 
first chamber from left skimmer with the return of overflow. Second Duplex with dsb live rock and chaetomorpha. Then the carbon and the return pump....how it sounds to you?

(i have not a overflow space behind the main tank to use it as a dsb section)

sump.jpg
 
first chamber from left skimmer with the return of overflow. Second Duplex with dsb live rock and chaetomorpha. Then the carbon and the return pump....how it sounds to you?

(i have not a overflow space behind the main tank to use it as a dsb section)

sump.jpg

I don't see any problem with what you have planned. Calculate how much water you will drain from the display when the return pump is off, and make sure your sump can hold it. If your return line has a hole at the surface of the display to restrict back siphoning, you will only lose the top 1" of the display plus whatever drains in the pipes and overflow box.
 
Hi Mr Wilson.

Herbert again. I did the change this week. The only thin that worries me is that thewater stillClaudy. Isnotgetting clear. Whatit could be?

Thanks

Herb
hcakebox@bellsouth.net

Hi Herb,

I don't want to take this thread too far off topic, but I'm more than willing to help. I don't know all the details of your tank or the problem, but it appears to be a new set-up. Cloudy water in a new tank is known as "new tank syndrome". As the name suggests, new tanks go through some growing pains for a few weeks or months as the nitrogen cycle establishes itself. What you are seeing is a bacterial bloom due to ammonia in the water.

The best solution is patience. Good live rock will inoculate the tank with the nitrifying bacteria required to assimilate the ammonia. Once the cloudy water goes away, you will start seeing nitrite. This is the toxic stage that causes stress and mortality to livestock. Seachem Prime will neutralize ammonia and nitrite, but the best solution is ti wait it out and hold off on adding livestock.

A good colony of macro algae in the duplex will add beneficial bacteria and lots of good sites for the bacteria to flourish.
 
many many thanks for your time. i am going to make it next week.If some one has any better idea...i would be glad to read it:bigeyes:
 
simply amazing thread. Thank you all for the input. This just answered all my questions on how to build my new sump(and saved me a ton of money in the process).
 
This worked so well, that I'm actually planning to add a second sump just for rock/rubble, ufo's (unknown floating organics ;) and a really deep slow flow sandbed) just to see where it leads.
The amount of sponge buildup in the current "main" sump were staggering, but I wonder if it could be because of the algal scrapings in the displaytank running through the 100 micron sock.
If so be the case and no amount of sponge grows in the the new compartment, I'll transform it to some sort of grape racemosa sandbed display thingy
 
bumping? alright
tell you guys what.
6000L fed algae scrubber and passive water movement over dsb with macros. Lot or turnicates and sponges
 
I don't have any exciting updates to add. Here's a brief description and summary of a Duplex system I set up about two years ago. The components are listed in the order in which the water flows through them.

Display size 100 gallons
Settling drum 55 gallons
DSB & live rock drum 55 gallons
Frag tanks size 120 gallons
Duplex filter size 120 gallons

The idea was to add lots of system volume to a moderately small display tank. The client had room in the basement where the water can stay cool and the filtration devices can be spread out where they can be easy to service.

The display tank drain has one 1" siphon drain with a 1" emergency/excess durso drain. The long drop to the basement offers excellent siphon power. I probably should have used a 3/4" or 1/2" siphon line for better siphon stability and easy siphon start/prime. As the water drains into the 55 gallon settling drum, detritus sinks to the bottom as clean water overflows near the top... well that was the plan. After a year and a half the drum didn't collect anything significant. Instead it was chock full of feather duster worms and tunicates (sea squirts), and sponges. I was hoping to use the drum for water changes, as it has bypass valves so the system still runs while the detritus and water is removed. Once the new water is fully mixed (salt) and aerated in the drum, it can be turned back online. Like i said, that was the plan, but it was always clean. Either the display didn't generate enough detritus, or the turnover was too slow (+- 450 GPH with a Poseidon T3 pump) to collect detritus, or the detritus was too light to sink to the bottom. I think the problem was the latter. Perhaps a labyrinth of some sort would help separate the heavier detritus from the water???

The system has zero nitrates and phosphates but I can't say for sure what the deciding factor is for that. The protein skimmer is a premium model (Bubbleking) but it doesn't collect a heck of a lot. It usually just fizzes away with wet foam below the top of the neck. The benthic zone would accumulate detritus about every six months. The top eggcrate panels are removable for siphoning. The detritus comes from the refugium above. In the future I would consider using a shallow food grade plastic tray to hold the macro algae (chaetomorpha). A series of smaller trays would be easier to manage. One tray could be cleaned and harvested weekly. When you cut or tear macroalgae it "bleeds" nutrients into the tank along with secondary metabolites that are mildly toxic. By completely discarding one tray of algae without tearing or disturbing it, water quality and stability is improved.

A few larger starfish and urchins would help keep remove some of the detritus from the benthic zone. The benthic zone itself was typical of other ones I have built. A network of eggcrate about 6" tall by 30" wide by 48" long. The first few partitions of eggcrate were more populated with critters than the last half. I think there is a benefit to seeding the last half of the eggcrate with small rocks or collected benthic inverts. As far as detritus removal goes, it might be a good idea to have a slight slope on the bottom panel so detritus migrates to the end for easy siphon removal. Another idea would be to mount a powerhead at the bottom at one end (at the start) and plug it in for five minutes every week. It could even be on a daily timer. It would be just enough to "stop the dust from settling". It would also help stir up plankton (pods) and deliver it to the fish and corals waiting in the display tank.

The DSB drum has passive flow running over the surface at a rate of 450 GPH (from settling drum). It appears to be detritus free but I haven't taken a close look. Like the settling drum, it's dark blue plastic with a black lid and no illumination. I can't report if it has a positive or negative effect on water quality, namely nitrate reduction (denitrification), but in theory it has a large dark anaerobic zone with a constant passive supply of new water at the surface. If I were to do it again, I would add a series of 3" diameter perforated PVC tubes with an end cap at the bottom. I would push the (maybe 10?) tubes vertically into the sand and leave them empty. The tubes would provide some additional water exchange to the sand bed as well as provide easy access to add a sulphur or carbon source. Temperature and dissolved oxygen can be monitored by dropping probes down the tubes. A heater at the bottom of the tube will cause thermal exchange as hot water rises in the tube and cooler surface water is pulled down into the sand bed. I think something like this will greatly improve efficiency without compromising the anaerobic environment. Alternatively, I would use about 25 tubes and fill them with sand. This system would add more surface area and perhaps increase efficiency. Water would be able to passively flow throughout the empty areas around the vertical tubes. A carbon or sulphur pellet could be added to the sand mix in the tubes. The tubes could be periodically removed to evaluate if hydrogen sulphide is forming (black sand and rotten egg smell), detritus is collecting (which isn't likely), and if carbon & sulphur media is dissolved. This kind of sand tube configuration would be a compromise between live rock (less surface area) and a deep sand bed (more surface area). What it offers that these two do not is more interface surface area without losing the anaerobic zone.

The frag tank got completely overgrown and ended up with more coral (mostly sps) than the display tank upstairs. In the end the bioload was quite high so the idea of increasing system volume wasn't fully realized. If there was more room, a daisy chain of 55 gallon drums would be a cost effective way of achieving the original goal. Huge amounts of system water volume results in a low bioload with the appearance of an overstocked display tank. The system stays cooler, water chemistry buffering is more stable, and there is room for nutrient levels to rise a little. A bypass drum is a convenient and safe way to change water.

I've been leaning toward more light for the refugium. As much as chaetomorpha grows well under low wattage compact power twist fluorescent bulbs, growth and subsequent nutrient export is exponentially better with T5 or metal halide lighting. I don't think LED lighting is ready for market yet, certainly not the mass produced units from China. The intensity and light spread are not quite up to... you know... par :) If you feel compelled to use LED, don't use the blue bulbs as they serve no purpose for algae growth. As I've mentioned many times in this thread, the algae should be kept in a shallow 4" tray so all of it is illuminated with minimal shadowing. It also assures that the lower half doesn't slowly degrade and fall apart, releasing nutrients back into the water. Another possible modification would be to use a timer to take the refugium offline during the day while it is in the dark (reverse photo period). Photosynthetic respiration occurs during the dark period as the algae converts oxygen to Co2, driving down PH. During (dark period) respiration, the algae releases a portion of its nitrate, phosphate and heavy metals. By taking it offline in the morning when the refugium lights go out, and turning it back on at night when the refugium lights come on, it minimizes nutrients leaking out of the algae and returning it to the system water. You could use the same timer to run the refugium light and the pump that supplies water to the refugium. The benthic zone is non-photosynthetic so it does not have this nightly problem.

If I had the time and resources I would test the day and night nitrate and phosphate levels in a system with a large refugium. If nutrient leaking can be confirmed, a daily shut-off system would be worth the trouble. If the fluctuation is minimal, such a system wouldn't be worth the hassle and risk of timer/pump failure.

One of the far-fetched but interesting ideas I mentioned earlier in the thread is the concept of keeping a significant bed of large (Hawaiian) feather dusters in a benthic zone. The feather duster worms collect detritus out of the water column along with heavy metals, nutrients and other "bad stuff". Every week you could remove a dozen or so tubes and discard them without too much work. Within a few weeks the tubes would be restored by the worm without expending excess energy. They are filter feeders so they polish the water as an added bonus. If we had quantitative numbers of the content of the soft worm tubes we could decide if the practice of farming and exporting them is viable. Various worms (earth worms, tubifex worms etc.) are used in solid and liquid waste management on many levels. This idea is just an extension of that practice.

We also talked about clam or scallop beds earlier as water polishers. Phytoplankton and even adding diatoms would help feed the bivalves (clam-like critters) but the nice thing about benthic zone organisms is they thrive on whatever floats by with no nutrient import (feeding) required specifically for them. The problem with clams as a filtration method is they require illumination that uses energy and heats the water, maybe even encouraging nuisance algae. Clams are also a drain on the calcium and carbonates in system water. Scallops are preferred because they are non-photosynthetic, requiring no light, but they are notoriously difficult to keep (unless it's just me). They tend to get skinny and slowly whither away. Oysters seem to be more hardy and are also non-photosynthetic. They are more of a thing you find attached to a coral than something you buy on its own, but maybe we should be focusing on a colony of oysters in a benthic zone.

If you were able to read this far you must have some info to share on these ideas :) I would love to get some feedback on non-photosynthetic bivalve longevity in reef tanks.
 
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