Duplex sump concept

[NEK-ap24]

Mr Wilson....Was this debunked?

Mr Wilson....Was this debunked?

Bit of concern.......
This is a quote from Mr. Wilson's post on SaraB's 268 Gallon build thread, page 35 post 856 dated 6/23/2010. I have not seen this brought up in this thread, which is odd, since this thread seems to suggest using eggcrate instead of live rock.

"Some people believe that eggcrate leaches phosphate. There is too much empirical data to ignore it. Some say the problem goes away if they switch to black eggcrate. It could just be the sterile light reflecting surface that is begging to be invaded by algae, or perhaps the polystyrene is leaching heavy metals or phosphate. The best test wold be to switch to acrylic eggcrate. It's triple the price, but much stronger and it would put this question to bed once and for all. You can find it at electrical wholesalers or at least order it through them.

In your situation, you want to solve the problem more than find the source, so yank the eggcrate for good measure. While you're at it, remove any other "weird" non-food grade items that may be in your tank (ABS pipe etc.)."

Would like to just have this concern eliminated before I build a matrix of eggcrate and then find I have to use as little as possible for a skimmer stand or frag shelves....or none at all.

Thanks

 

[budster.stig1]

This thread does not suggest use of egg-crate instead of LR. Egg crate is used to create the benthic zone in the Fuge, LR and DSB is still used elsewhere in the system.

 

[MadReefist]

But why not use bioball type material instead of eggcrate?

 

[budster.stig1]

All the surfaces of the egg-crate provide 100's of times more surface area for benthic creatures to habitate. These creatures are known as water scrubers per Mr. Wilson's explanation, the more you have the better. I suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread and read it in it's entirety for a better understanding, it's fairly complex and Mr. Wilson explains the concept well........................

 

[MadReefist]

How does the same volume in eggcrate provide 100x more surface area than bioballs? BB's are engineered specifically to provide maximum surface area, no? I get it with the aiptasia's they need some room to suspend themselves in the water column, but the tube worms are tiny.

 

[Flanders]

Bioballs are designed to provide the maximum surface area for bacteria. Egg crate provides much more usable surface area for the much larger size of the organisms you want to colonize it—tube worms, tunicates, sponges, etc.

 

[budster.stig1]

How does the same volume in eggcrate provide 100x more surface area than bioballs? BB's are engineered specifically to provide maximum surface area, no? I get it with the aiptasia's they need some room to suspend themselves in the water column, but the tube worms are tiny.

Like I said before, READ THE THREAD!.............................:wavehand:

 

[NEK-ap24]

I should have enclosed the quote more carefully. I think you are missing my point/question.

Here is it again...I made the quote a bit more clear. (please note that I am talking about the Eggcrate, nothing else)

I bring it up because I have not seen this brought up in this thread (yep I have read it all), which is odd, since this thread suggests using a good amount of eggcrate.


This is a quote from Mr. Wilson's post on SaraB's 268 Gallon build thread, page 35 post# 856 dated 6/23/2010.

(originally posted by Mr. Wilson on another thread)

"Some people believe that eggcrate leaches phosphate. There is too much empirical data to ignore it. Some say the problem goes away if they switch to black eggcrate. It could just be the sterile light reflecting surface that is begging to be invaded by algae, or perhaps the polystyrene is leaching heavy metals or phosphate. The best test wold be to switch to acrylic eggcrate. It's triple the price, but much stronger and it would put this question to bed once and for all. You can find it at electrical wholesalers or at least order it through them."

I did misspeak when I implied that eggcrate = liverock, I was just trying to quickly phrase my question, I did not intend to say that egg crate was doing the same thing as live rock. I merely was pointing out that the design of this "Duplex Sump" calls for the use of a great deal of eggcrate (yes, to create the benthic zone with more surface area for larger filter feeders)...as being more effective for providing space for the filter feeders than just using more live rock in the sump. My concern was Mr. Wilson's statement that "Eggcrate may leach phospahtes!" (His statement was in another thread so I wasn't able to quote it directly, but I did reference it fairly thouroughly so you could view it for yourselves if desired.)

 

[budster.stig1]

I hear what your saying now. I personally have no knowledge of the science behind what Mr. Wilson said in the above quote, nor have I ever heard that so I guess we need Mr. Wilson to chime in on what he has discovered since 2010. It would seem that the issue was resolved based on his continued support of the use of egg crate in the systems described in this thread. I cannot speak for him so I will wait to see his comments too.........Budster

 

[sifnos]

After using this for almost 2 years I am very very pleased. Although I would lke to go one step further. What if we could make an extra section for dsb and magrovs after the chaeto ?

 

[mr.wilson]

I'm not convinced that deep sand beds really make a measurable difference, but that may be just my experience. On the other hand, I don't see any harm in them.

I have nonetheless been advocating for the filling of overflow boxes with coarse sand (RDSB). It's a good use of unutilized space which is really the driving force behind the Duplex idea. Not only repurposing wasted space, but adding to the diversity of the ecosystem. Filling as many niches as possible gets us closer to natures balance. Providing a suitable site for marine organisms to populate is all you have to do since we usually have an excess of nutrients available to sustain their population. If there isn't enough food to feed them, then there isn't a demand for them in your system in the first place.

Some of the benefits of a sand bed overflow are...

1) Easier to find and catch fish and inverts that make their way over the teeth
2) Less distance for water to fall so noise and salt creep are diminished.
3) The settling chamber effect is minimized so detritus goes to the sump instead of being trapped at the bottom of the overflow.
4) When course sand is used, copepods and amphipods have am ant farm-like home that subsequently feeds the display tank.
5) Coupled with carbon dosing, the sand bed becomes active rather than passive.
6) It provides an anaerobic environment with active flow across the surface of the sand.
7) The implementation of mesh breather/feeder tubes in the sand will allow you to measure dissolved oxygen, add a carbon (food) source, or provide passive water exchange via thermal exchange (heater) or air lift.
8) Because water isn't flowed directly through the sand, it does not become a mechanical filter/nutrient sink.

I have been using NP biopellets in mesh media bags (non-fluidized). They seem to be working in most systems, but not all. It's very difficult to establish what is the keystone to your filtration and what is superfluous. You really need to start removing devices and discontinuing practices and measure a difference. Many of you are familiar with Nineball's 1350 gallon reef tank. We had/have what turned out to be AEFW. Initially I thought the NP biopellets where the possible cause of STN so I removed them on the side of caution. As a result, the tank went from near zero phosphate and nitrate to 0.25 and 25ppm respectively. Now I'm sure the acropora die off and stress contributed to this, but the removal of the pellets was the only significant change to the tank. After a few weeks the pellets were put back into commission, but it has been a couple of months and they have not ben able to reduce the Po4 or NO3. Perhaps it has the capacity to maintain but not lower excess nutrients. We started dosing vinegar and after three weeks of slowly upping the dose, we are at 300ml/day and Po4 is 0.1 and nitrate is down to 10ppm. I can live with these numbers, but I need to see if they can be maintained by bacteria or if I need to change the GFO frequently. I just put in a $200 box of GFO, so it had better last a few months

Lanthanum chloride is another Po4 reducing tool, but it's one of the resource that China has decide to exploit the price of in recent years. It's popular in the swimming pool industry and proves to be a cost effective method of Po4 control for public aquariums where GFO is cost prohibitive.

Of course, these chemically dependent methods are getting away from the simpler life I was living with the Duplex method. We are redoing the sump for Nineball's tank and a large scale Duplex system is in the works. We already have a mangrove tree wall that has taken off quite well and has developed into a sea of green. A can't attest to the impact the mangroves have on water quality, but they do foster mysid shrimp that I don't see anywhere else in the system, and they sure make the filtration room look alive.

I believe that the benefits to a benthic zone are hard to measure, but they are intrinsic to all marine ecosystems. Perhaps they function as probiotics and ward off fish and coral disease, or parasites. Perhaps they assimilate secondary metabolites (coral toxins) to protect neighbouring corals... or maybe they just look cool, which is enough for me

The only criticism I have seen is with regard to detrital build-up. The quick solution for this is the addition of starfish, urchins, crabs and snails, if they don't populate on their own. Keep in mind, our sand beds and rock is full of detritus, so a small quantity on the bottom of your sump may stand out (like dirt on a hardwood floor), but it doesn't contribute significantly to dissolved (inorganic) nutrients.

 

[sifnos]

:beer:that's a "˜'professional post''! thank you for your info. so you have done the same. what is the magrov wall? can you share with us any photo? may we change the magrovs with caulerpa forest? What would be the most appropriate space for each occasion

 

[5pacey]

I too would be very interested in getting a more detailed scoop on the mangrove wall. Pics/schematics/descriptions... Throw us a bone pls!

Thx,

Spacey

 

[budster.stig1]

Attention Mr. Wilson

Attention Mr. Wilson

I hear what your saying now. I personally have no knowledge of the science behind what Mr. Wilson said in the above quote, nor have I ever heard that so I guess we need Mr. Wilson to chime in on what he has discovered since 2010. It would seem that the issue was resolved based on his continued support of the use of egg crate in the systems described in this thread. I cannot speak for him so I will wait to see his comments too.........Budster

How about an answer to the above subject. You will find your quote listed a few posts back.

 

[mr.wilson]

I too would be very interested in getting a more detailed scoop on the mangrove wall. Pics/schematics/descriptions... Throw us a bone pls!

Thx,

Spacey

I will take an updated pic tomorrow, but here is an older one so you get the idea. Water flows from level to level across the mangrove roots.

 

[mr.wilson]

How about an answer to the above subject. You will find your quote listed a few posts back.

I've used eggcrate for many different marine aquarium applications from wholesale to home tank and have never had any hair algae issues that I could isolate to the eggcrate itself. I respect the reports I've read by fellow reefers and take them at face value. I have not come across any scientific evidence that polystyrene (eggcrate material) leaches anything int the water. It isn't rated to be food grade, but nor is there a demand to certify it as such.

Most plastics will leach chemicals into your water, however minor. I use black eggcrate because it looks cleaner and if well sourced comes at a similar cost.

In our application, we are using it in the dark so there is no risk of it growing algae. I suspect that the people who have experienced hair algae outbreaks on their eggcrate did so because it is white and devoid of life, and not because of any phosphate leaching. I just brought the point up in the thread to be thorough.

For the purist, you can buy the much more expensive acrylic eggcrate, but it strays from our practical goal of DIY here. There are many other industrial grid material out there. I'll try to post a link if I can find it in my notes.

With all of the phosphate reducing practices we employ these days I doubt any plastic would be able to cause a build-up even if it had those properties. Our fish and coral foods are loaded with phosphate so the "P" word isn't necessarily a dirty word

 

[budster.stig1]

Mr. Wilson: Thanks for explanation, I'm a few days from ordering my Rock and Sand for my 210g Reef project, and will be building my Duplex Sump soon, so my concern over egg crate has been answered. I guess I will use black, it will be the structure for the benthic zone, so I guess black would be appropriate for that dark area. Thanks for the ideas in this thread, I am looking forward to the many benefits this Duplex Sump will deliver........Budster

If you would like to see my progress, go to Budster's twin 150's build in "large Reef" section.

 

[5pacey]

I will take an updated pic tomorrow, but here is an older one so you get the idea. Water flows from level to level across the mangrove roots. ...

Thank you for the pic. Very illustrative... if you do end up taking any more photos they will be very well received .

I have been fantasizing about something similar in a way for about a year now, although in my fantasies the rows of mangrove "planters" are fancier and on display through the living quarters of my house. The water would essentially flow there across the roots, as in your design. But my thinking has not progressed so far beyond that, and is not likely to in the near future, at least not to the extent imagined. I am a lot more likely to implement some form of mangrove stand/planter/plantation/patch in my currently under-construction basement filtration/fish room/area for the 90G DT I've been constructing. If I am still into the mangrove plantings and when I have learned necessary husbandry I may try to tackle a display version of the setup.

Ironically, I am in Florida now on vacation, in Sarasota area, and red mangrove propagules are strewn on the beaches here as debris. I even found several black mangrove propagules too but those are much less common. I have collected probably about a hundred now, good looking ones. Have not found any ordnances prohibiting collection of seedlings from the beach, although damaging grown plants is highly illegal.

From the pic, it looks like you have not employed any substrate in the planters, is this true or I am just not seeing right. Any reason for this? Do you not see any issues w/just water and no substrate? Also, do you have any misting/sprinkler system's over the plants to deal w/excreted salt?

Mangrove root system has always felt to me as the ideal natural benthic zone material, much more advantageous than say egg-crate, although that is hard to beat for surface area if you don't want to play w/mangrove planting.

Spacey

 

[5pacey]

From the pic, it looks like you have not employed any substrate in the planters, is this true or I am just not seeing right. Any reason for this? Do you not see any issues w/just water and no substrate? Also, do you have any misting/sprinkler system's over the plants to deal w/excreted salt?

Ok, nevermind the no substrate question, after some more looking, I can see substrate, I think in the planters. but another question occurred to me... after some googling on the subject of red mangrove care I came across the idea of tying up the propagules w/flexible tape to some type of support so they are suspended, fat end down of course, above the substrate in the water, in order to "train" them to form the "walking" / elevated root system, rather than a standard branching net horizontal roots when they are buried in substrate. Have you ever tried this? If accomplished, that is what I had in mind as the ideal benthic zone surface area expander system - sort of a natural egg-crate, with additional benefits.

Spacey

 

[mr.wilson]

The mangroves are planted in 4" of Miracle Mud which is basically building sand. I wouldn't recommend the use of Miracle Mud, dolomite, aragonite or silica sand is fine.

I have a misting system that sprays for one minute eight times per day. The nozzles create a fine mist that washes salt from the leaves, but there is some saltcreep/build-up on the "wood". I'm using a 100psi pressure tank with a solenoid. There are 8 spray nozzles at the top of the wall and the mist travels pretty far due to circulation fans.

I'm using 2 x 300w plasma lights, but plan on changing to 2 x 185w LED soon.

Here is an updated picture showing how well the mangroves have grown.