Duplex sump concept
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Redstratplayer
New member
Befor i full commit to a cryptic sump i want to know exactly what are the known benifits of it.
A lot of what i read is "we think" "maybe".
What i want to know is .
1. What will it do for my tank as far as filtering,feeding etc ...etc.....?
2. What are posible benefits that "maybe" are there?
A lot of what i read is "we think" "maybe".
What i want to know is .
1. What will it do for my tank as far as filtering,feeding etc ...etc.....?
2. What are posible benefits that "maybe" are there?
cilyjr
Active member
optimum water quality and a balanced ecosystem are the goals here. trying to achieve naturally what equipment does now... billions of years of evolution "trial and error" has got have better solutions than we have come up with in 30 or 40 years of reefkeeping as a hobby. read through Mr.Wilsons first post in this thread its about 1/3 way down on the 1st page it really explains the goals for the idea.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I've tried to explain the concept here, as well as in other threads and forums. It's hard to remember what I said and where, so here's an over-simplified answer to your questions.
1. It may or may not have much of an impact on your system. It's more of a way to fine tune what is already there, than a replacement of other technologies. If it's done properly, it will take about a year to see measurable results. It's function is to reduce and remove the "bad stuff" while providing "good stuff" for feeding fish & inverts. There is no miracle system that absolves you of a duty of care, but this is the best one I've found so far. It's a hybrid of many methods, borrowing the best of each.
2. The benefits are nutrient reduction and export, as well as passive nutrition through the fostering of zooplankton and other pro-biotics. The basic idea is to make every inch of your system an efficient part of a greater ecosystem. The crux of the system is the two level naturalized filter (Duplex).
Now here's the long version...
It was a necessity for space that led me to fine tune what was already happening in my sumps (spontaneous populations of benthic invertebrates and sporadic macro-algae growth). The refugium needed to be shallow, and the sponges, tunicates, and fan worms that found a niche were limited by light, flow and sites to attach themselves. A two level (Duplex) offered a solution to my housing crises. I was now able to support as much life in a 30 gallon sump, as I could in a 300 gallon.
The system continues beyond the basic sump design. The display tank needs to be set-up in a fashion conducive to a successful, captive reef. The chain is as strong as the weakest link, and we're talking about a long chain here. These are the basic principals...
a) Laminar upward and/or circular flow, rather than random flow aimed down at the reef. This is best achieved with a closed loop with external pump, but can be accomplished with powerheads if that isn't an option.
b) Proper flow dynamics to allow for adequate surface tension at overflow box, to skim thin layer of surfactants from surface and eliminate dead spots. Cross-flow is the key, with no interference of the water around the overflow teeth.
c) Open rock work with adequate shelves for coral placement and limited shadowing.
d) The use of wasted space in the overflow box with the addition of a remote deep sand bed, and/or bio-mechanical filtration through the use of starfish, hermit crabs, colonial polyps, anemones, etc. Non-reef-safe inverts prove to be voracious cleaners.
e) Draining surfactant-rich surface water directly into the protein skimmer or at least setting up a skimmer zone that allows for all of the the water to pass through the protein skimmer, and only once. The turnover rate is about five times per hour for the sump and protein skimmer (matched).
f) Shallow macro algae bed to avoid sexual reproductive crashes and breakdown of shadowed "old growth" algae. Lower growth is harvested, leaving the newer top growth to mature. The refugium zone also minimizes stray bubbles from the skimmer and display drain line as the water flows through the algae culture.
g) Rubble rock zone with egg-crate bottom for zooplankton, shading benthic invertebrate zone, and to allow detritus to settle to a lower zone where it can be reduced by detrivores. If need be, it can be siphoned manually without causing too much disturbance.
h) Benthic invertebrate zone with slow flow, little or no light, and lots of sites to attach and grow. A network of egg-crate grid, used as a lattice, appears to offer more real estate and water flow than any other media.
i) A mangrove and or sea grass section for the support of a higher ecosystem. The system follows natures lead, using the same building blocks and methodology.
j) The use of a calcium reactor to get away from chemical dependencies. It lowers operational costs and allows for trouble-free operation without requiring a knowledge of witchcraft or alchemy.
k) A final stage where chemical media and filters can be located with minimal detritus accumulation or clogging.
Science has been very helpful with basic biology and chemistry, but for the most part, we're still working in the dark. There is little proof of validity to anything that we employ in our systems. This hobby is paved with good ideas that have faded into obscurity. Some of those ideas fade in and out several times. Time will tell how the Duplex filter is received.
Protein skimmers have been in use in marine aquaria since the late 1960's, but only recently, have we found out what they are removing. For now, we agree that their function is beneficial, but this can change, as our views of technology and methodology have many times in the past.
Protein skimmers are a form of chemical filtration. They don't mesh with the idea of an ecosystemic aquarium, and have no place in many successful systems. This illustrates that they are neither a good or bad idea, just one tool in our arsenal.
It's hard to qualify one aspect of something and apply it universally to every situation. For example, Julian Sprung convinced us that mechanical filters were detrimental in the late 1980's. At the time, he was correct, because coral nutrition was extremely limited. Advances in coral feeding technics and products, as well as flow dynamics have not only dispelled this belief, but have created a need for mechanical filtration.
The Duplex filter is nothing entirely new. It's basically a jacked up Jaulbert with an algae turf scrubber on top. Algae turf scrubbers have been around for over 50 years. They were turned into efficient machines by Dr. Addey in the mid 80's. His contribution to the idea was the shallow trays of algae that were harvested periodically. His pure system focused too much on the turf scrubber and left no room for chemical filtration (carbon & protein skimming). He also used bacterial algae (cyanobacteria) rather than macro-algae. It left little for marketers to go on, so it fell out of popularity quickly.
The plennums of Jaulbert were another idea that didn't lend itself to glossy adds and sexy photos. I believe it was the benthic invertebrates living in his plennums that should be attributed to their success, and not the gas exchange he surmised.
Leng Sy's Magic Mud and macro-algae bed offers the same real estate opportunities that we're talking about here. His claim was that the mud was magic and offered magical heavy metals. I think we all saw through that one. The macro-algae in his systems doesn't grow because it is in a continual photo-period. As a result it doesn't crash (sexually reproduce), but it also fails to export nutrients. It merely acts as media for bacteria and zooplankton, much like the mangrove roots in the Duplex system. A shallow algae bed will not become overcrowded, stressed and crash. It will continue to grow without going to seed just as your lawn does if you keep cutting it; however, if you stop cutting it for a while, nature will take its' course.
One of the limiting factors in establishing a benthic (or cryptic) zone is the lack of readily available critters. The ocean floor is teaming with the stuff, but there is little demand for them at this point in time. If you follow the ascidian links provided earlier on in the thread, you will see how amazing (looking) some of these creatures are. Steve Tyree offers starter cultures on his web site, but the prices are out of my budget.
The presence of benthic invertebrates in our sumps and dark corners has established that there is a need for them. They are opportunistic feeders, that have found excess nutrients in our systems. By eliminating their growth limiting factors we can harness their power.
The most difficult aspect of replicating a natural reef is finding a place for all of its' constituents. If you had 1000 sq' of space, you could support a very stable 250 gallon tank, by shear water volume alone. Most of us don't have that option, so we need to pack as much into a tight space as possible.
Mr. Wilson:
I searched for dealers of mangrooves in my country (Chile) but lamentably the imports of livestock in Chile is very poor.
I don't want to add other macro-algae because it add's a lot of work.
If i can't add mangrooves to my duplex sump, it would not be effective??
I would place the duplex just with rubble rock... and the eggcrate of course
I'm buying the eggcrate today so i hope tomorrow i can post pics of sump
Best regards and wishes
Cristobal
I searched for dealers of mangrooves in my country (Chile) but lamentably the imports of livestock in Chile is very poor.
I don't want to add other macro-algae because it add's a lot of work.
If i can't add mangrooves to my duplex sump, it would not be effective??
I would place the duplex just with rubble rock... and the eggcrate of course
I'm buying the eggcrate today so i hope tomorrow i can post pics of sump
Best regards and wishes
Cristobal
Redstratplayer
New member
Thanks Mr.Wilson !!
tHIS is the reason i started looking into reef keeping.
Not the fish and coral as much as inverts and the micro niches they fill.
I want to see how many natral ecosystems i can add to my system.
tHIS is the reason i started looking into reef keeping.
Not the fish and coral as much as inverts and the micro niches they fill.
I want to see how many natral ecosystems i can add to my system.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The mangroves help complete the ecosystem, but are not paramount to its' operation. The macro algae is, however, is an integral part. There is no "work" involved in having macro algae. It out-competes with nuisance algae and is a lot easier to remove than hair algae in the display tank.
It's like having a healthy lawn; there is no room for weeds to grow. I guess that may not clarify things if you don't have grass lawns in Chile.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
You will have to cut it back every week, but it's easier than cleaning ugly algae in the tank.
There is a red variety called gracilaria chilensis. You can guess where it comes from by the name. They farm it in the north (Thanks again Google).
I would try a few varieties and see which one grows the fastest. You may discover something we don't know about.
Most types of algae have toxins that allow them to compete for space. I wouldn't worry too much about these if you use carbon and a protein skimmer.
Redstratplayer
New member
mr.wilson i was thinking and i realised that sponges,sea squirts and other filter feeders would strip the water clean of photoplankton to the point that it would starv itself from growth.
So to have decent growth in or benithic zones he should dose photo.
I dont know if this applys to larger tanks but in my 20gallon nano i think that it might be a posability.
What do you thik?
So to have decent growth in or benithic zones he should dose photo.
I dont know if this applys to larger tanks but in my 20gallon nano i think that it might be a posability.
What do you thik?
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mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The protein skimmer, aiptasia zone, and mechanical filter will also filter out some phytoplankton.
I dose phytoplankton just once a week. The trace elements and phosphates that come with them cause algae blooms if you dose it more often. I think phytoplankton would be very helpful for larger, more demanding tunicates and sponges, but the smaller incidental ones seem to do fine with the excess organics already in place.
Dried zooplankton is another beneficial food, but I would feed the corals in the display, and have the benthic zone as a secondary target.
I dose phytoplankton just once a week. The trace elements and phosphates that come with them cause algae blooms if you dose it more often. I think phytoplankton would be very helpful for larger, more demanding tunicates and sponges, but the smaller incidental ones seem to do fine with the excess organics already in place.
Dried zooplankton is another beneficial food, but I would feed the corals in the display, and have the benthic zone as a secondary target.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Plants react to darkness. They can switch off with a nanosecond of darkness.
Algae and terrestrial plants both require a respiratory period of darkness. The photoperiod also dictates the plants reproductive cycle, signaling seasonal changes.
Macro algae will cease to grow in a 24 hour photoperiod. It will also cease to reproduce.
perpetual98
New member
I've run a 24/7 photoperiod over the refuge of one of my 120G tanks for over a year now and I have to prune and sell chaeto or toss it weekly. If I actually take the time to tumble it, it grows even faster.
From Tyree http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/
"Question: Cryptic zones in a tank are VERY efficient filters .. that may even work without a DSB, for nitrate removal.
Answer: Cryptic zones are NOT specifically setup to remove nitrates. Cryptic organisms or animals are meant to replace the functions of the protein skimmer. The processing of ammonia and nitrate is performed within the zonal system the same basic way it is performed within the Berlin reef system. Live rock provides external surface area and large amounts of internal surface area for bacteria. Live rock is extremelly porous and offers an immense surface area. There have been plenty of captive reefs established without deep sand beds that have maintained very low levels of nitrates. The problem of ammonia buildup within captive aquariums was actually solved decades ago. Every one knows that surface area must be provided for bacteria. This was originally done by undergravel filters and then by trickle filters. Trickle filters were found to produce high nitrate levels over time and their use was eventually replaced by live rock. Great success has occurred with live rock. EG systems utilize live rock methods to establish proper surface areas."
I have been confused after reading all the posts as to what the cryptic (benthic) zone organisms (sponges, etc) are supposed to accomplish. According to Tyree it is to take the place of the protein skimmer. So by using the "duplex" system the macro algae exports nitrogen and phosphate and the cryptic(benthic) organisms filter (skim) proteins, bacteria, etc.
I believe a good experiment is to set up a mud/macro algae rufugium as usual. Stop using a skimmer after some period of maturity....as suggested by proponents of the mud/macro algae refugium concept. Then see if adding a cryptic (benthic) zone adds anything to the system. What would be the measurables?
"Question: Cryptic zones in a tank are VERY efficient filters .. that may even work without a DSB, for nitrate removal.
Answer: Cryptic zones are NOT specifically setup to remove nitrates. Cryptic organisms or animals are meant to replace the functions of the protein skimmer. The processing of ammonia and nitrate is performed within the zonal system the same basic way it is performed within the Berlin reef system. Live rock provides external surface area and large amounts of internal surface area for bacteria. Live rock is extremelly porous and offers an immense surface area. There have been plenty of captive reefs established without deep sand beds that have maintained very low levels of nitrates. The problem of ammonia buildup within captive aquariums was actually solved decades ago. Every one knows that surface area must be provided for bacteria. This was originally done by undergravel filters and then by trickle filters. Trickle filters were found to produce high nitrate levels over time and their use was eventually replaced by live rock. Great success has occurred with live rock. EG systems utilize live rock methods to establish proper surface areas."
I have been confused after reading all the posts as to what the cryptic (benthic) zone organisms (sponges, etc) are supposed to accomplish. According to Tyree it is to take the place of the protein skimmer. So by using the "duplex" system the macro algae exports nitrogen and phosphate and the cryptic(benthic) organisms filter (skim) proteins, bacteria, etc.
I believe a good experiment is to set up a mud/macro algae rufugium as usual. Stop using a skimmer after some period of maturity....as suggested by proponents of the mud/macro algae refugium concept. Then see if adding a cryptic (benthic) zone adds anything to the system. What would be the measurables?
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Driftwood
New member
That wouldn't be a good test. Main reason is that it takes time for a benthic zone to mature, 6 months to a year. You couldn' tjust throw in some empty eggcrate and wonder why it doesn't function like the skimmer you just removed.
Setup three identical systems except for one has skimmer one has benthic zone and one has neither. Then let them mature and record the results. You could also, after the system matures, swap the skimmer for the populated benthic zone and this would show you if they were doing the same function or not.
I definitely wouldn't argue that a benthic zone replaces a skimmer. I think there is much more research to be done and lots of time for these systems to mature and people to report their successes and failures.
Dave
Setup three identical systems except for one has skimmer one has benthic zone and one has neither. Then let them mature and record the results. You could also, after the system matures, swap the skimmer for the populated benthic zone and this would show you if they were doing the same function or not.
I definitely wouldn't argue that a benthic zone replaces a skimmer. I think there is much more research to be done and lots of time for these systems to mature and people to report their successes and failures.
Dave
Driftwood
New member
Possibly, but the zone doesn't need darkness. Just lower light so that these creatures do not have to compete with algae.
My display has plenty of sponges and tube worms in the lighted areas as well as the darker areas. I have some huge yellow sponges that grow well totally exposed to my MH lights.
Dave
My display has plenty of sponges and tube worms in the lighted areas as well as the darker areas. I have some huge yellow sponges that grow well totally exposed to my MH lights.
Dave
Slick Fork
New member
Some very interesting ideas put forth here. I was wondering if you guys could critique my first attempt at designing a sump
It is a tank I picked up dirt cheap. It is all scratched up so I don't want to use it as a display, It will sit slightly below and behind my 100gallon display (hidden in a fish room) and I plan on having the overflow hole at the top plumbed to a 20 gallon rubbermaid below the sump (a sump for the sump if you will!!!) strictly as a safety measure in case something overflows.
I plan on seeding the skimmer compartment with xenia as there should be no problem letting light from the "fuge" spill over. and the intake compartment will be full of LR rubble or something to break up the splashing!
All criticism (constructive of course) more than welcome!!
It is a tank I picked up dirt cheap. It is all scratched up so I don't want to use it as a display, It will sit slightly below and behind my 100gallon display (hidden in a fish room) and I plan on having the overflow hole at the top plumbed to a 20 gallon rubbermaid below the sump (a sump for the sump if you will!!!) strictly as a safety measure in case something overflows.
I plan on seeding the skimmer compartment with xenia as there should be no problem letting light from the "fuge" spill over. and the intake compartment will be full of LR rubble or something to break up the splashing!
All criticism (constructive of course) more than welcome!!
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