OnlyCrimson
New member
You must also factor in how much water you will make a year. For my tank I make less than 300g a year.
ebay water filtration?
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I think the part that gets often missed is that the "cheap" units come with "cheap" components. The prefilters are low capacity and the GAC is almost worthless and quickly exposes the membrane to excess and damaging chlorine. Many come with horizontal DI chambers. Turing them vertical is NOT the same as a true vertical DI housing. The membranes are more often than not, lower quality or not hand picked. That missing few % of rejection can make a huge difference in DI usage.
So when you add it all up, "upgrading" the cheap unit to a decent unit costs the same as buying the decent unit to begin with. There is one glaring exception. Most of the eBay vendors could give a flying hoot about you, your reef or your water quality. They are not customer centric businesses. They are simply in the business of pushing as much product down the unsuspecting buyers throat as possible. If you buy from a reputable vendor, you get customer support and somebody on the other end of the line that is concerned about your happiness as a customer and the quality if their product and YOUR water.
So, yeah you can get a $75 bare bones unit and non existent customer support, or you can spend $175 and get a high quality unit with customer support. One will be with you for a few years, the other be with you as long as you are in the hobby.
Look at it from an economic standpoint. If the 10 reputable companies sell for $200 and the "eBay" companies sell for $100, how can they be selling the SAME thing? Both types of vendors are ONLINE retailers. One pays eBay insertion and sales fees AND credit card fees and relies on word of mouth and eBay for advertising. The other relies on banner ads and word of mouth. I.E. Both types of vendors have very similar overhead as it relates to making and supporting a sale.
If the "reputable companies could sell for $100 and be profitable, why wouldn't they? The would not only sell MORE units, but would also compete with the eBay crap. They CAN'T sell at that price because it COSTS THEM MORE to build their quality units with quality parts. Why do the reputable companuies NOT sell on eBay? Because they can't compete with the low prices junk
Before you decide on a unit,
CALL Buckeyefield Supply
CALL thefilerguys
CALL Melev
CALL Air Water Ice
CALL PurelyH20
Then call the bargain basement eBay vendors. It will become very obvious who is honest and who is a huckster.
So when you add it all up, "upgrading" the cheap unit to a decent unit costs the same as buying the decent unit to begin with. There is one glaring exception. Most of the eBay vendors could give a flying hoot about you, your reef or your water quality. They are not customer centric businesses. They are simply in the business of pushing as much product down the unsuspecting buyers throat as possible. If you buy from a reputable vendor, you get customer support and somebody on the other end of the line that is concerned about your happiness as a customer and the quality if their product and YOUR water.
So, yeah you can get a $75 bare bones unit and non existent customer support, or you can spend $175 and get a high quality unit with customer support. One will be with you for a few years, the other be with you as long as you are in the hobby.
Look at it from an economic standpoint. If the 10 reputable companies sell for $200 and the "eBay" companies sell for $100, how can they be selling the SAME thing? Both types of vendors are ONLINE retailers. One pays eBay insertion and sales fees AND credit card fees and relies on word of mouth and eBay for advertising. The other relies on banner ads and word of mouth. I.E. Both types of vendors have very similar overhead as it relates to making and supporting a sale.
If the "reputable companies could sell for $100 and be profitable, why wouldn't they? The would not only sell MORE units, but would also compete with the eBay crap. They CAN'T sell at that price because it COSTS THEM MORE to build their quality units with quality parts. Why do the reputable companuies NOT sell on eBay? Because they can't compete with the low prices junk
Before you decide on a unit,
CALL Buckeyefield Supply
CALL thefilerguys
CALL Melev
CALL Air Water Ice
CALL PurelyH20
Then call the bargain basement eBay vendors. It will become very obvious who is honest and who is a huckster.
carlso63
Reefkeeping since 1977
Bean:
You can see my unit in the pics above... you can also see my readings... if you read my post you see that my readings have been verified both by myself with my own handheld and by several members of my local club with their own meters...
I keep hearing about "cheap" this and "cheap" that, but I am lost on the specifics of exactly what you mean. My unit is 17 months old. In that time I have replaced my prefilters once; not because they were "cheap" or stopped working or clogged or because my TDs went up - but because I thought it prudent to replace the filters at least once a year. I also replaced my DI resin 2 weeks ago because my output TDs had gone from a consistent "0" reading to a consistent "2" ppm reading, and I was getting ready to fill up my new 225g setup and wanted "0" for that purpose.
In the 18 months I have spent a total of $16 for the prefilters and $18 for the DI resin. That's $34, total in 18 months, or an average of about $23 in a years time. Someone earlier boasted about "saving money" because they bought a more expensive unit (probably twice plus the initial cost of mine) but they spent "only 20 bucks in 2 or 3 years on replacement stuff"...
I'll be generous and say they spent $21 over 3 years total, or an average of $7 per year. That means my cost average is about $16 per year higher in upkeep with the "cheap" unit vs theirs.
Mathmatically, that means I will need to spend that extra $16 per year for at least 6 - 7 more years before I have spent as much money total as the guy who bought the more expensive unit.
At which time my unit would be around 9 years old altogether.
It wouldn't be until around year 9 or 10 - assuming both he and I are still using the same units and still making RO / DI water; heck, still even have fish tanks up and running -
It wouldn't be until close to a DECADE LATER that I will have outspent him.
And just what "upgrading" have I "had" to do to get a "decent" unit? I turned the DI from horizontal to vertical, but that didn't cost any money... still using the RO membrane that came with the unit; last checked my "RO only" TDS maybe a month ago and it was 200+ going in and 6 ppm after RO only -
that's a 97% plus rejection rate in my book...
Is there something in the equation I am missing or forgetting?
I'm listening...
You can see my unit in the pics above... you can also see my readings... if you read my post you see that my readings have been verified both by myself with my own handheld and by several members of my local club with their own meters...
I keep hearing about "cheap" this and "cheap" that, but I am lost on the specifics of exactly what you mean. My unit is 17 months old. In that time I have replaced my prefilters once; not because they were "cheap" or stopped working or clogged or because my TDs went up - but because I thought it prudent to replace the filters at least once a year. I also replaced my DI resin 2 weeks ago because my output TDs had gone from a consistent "0" reading to a consistent "2" ppm reading, and I was getting ready to fill up my new 225g setup and wanted "0" for that purpose.
In the 18 months I have spent a total of $16 for the prefilters and $18 for the DI resin. That's $34, total in 18 months, or an average of about $23 in a years time. Someone earlier boasted about "saving money" because they bought a more expensive unit (probably twice plus the initial cost of mine) but they spent "only 20 bucks in 2 or 3 years on replacement stuff"...
I'll be generous and say they spent $21 over 3 years total, or an average of $7 per year. That means my cost average is about $16 per year higher in upkeep with the "cheap" unit vs theirs.
Mathmatically, that means I will need to spend that extra $16 per year for at least 6 - 7 more years before I have spent as much money total as the guy who bought the more expensive unit.
At which time my unit would be around 9 years old altogether.
It wouldn't be until around year 9 or 10 - assuming both he and I are still using the same units and still making RO / DI water; heck, still even have fish tanks up and running -
It wouldn't be until close to a DECADE LATER that I will have outspent him.
And just what "upgrading" have I "had" to do to get a "decent" unit? I turned the DI from horizontal to vertical, but that didn't cost any money... still using the RO membrane that came with the unit; last checked my "RO only" TDS maybe a month ago and it was 200+ going in and 6 ppm after RO only -
that's a 97% plus rejection rate in my book...
Is there something in the equation I am missing or forgetting?
I'm listening...
My RO/DI is also a Water General unit. I've been using it for several years now and have no complaints. The 75 GPD RO membrane it came with gave me a TDS reading of 4. I replaced the RO membrane with a Filmtek 75 GPD and it is the same TDS of 4. No difference. After awhile, I replaced the horizontal DI with a vertical one which was a good improvement. I change out my prefilters every 6 months. The system does not cost me much at all to keep running.
If I were to buy a new unit, I'd get one from one of the site sponsors. Not much difference in price, and you can get the vertical DI with it. I've had good luck with The Filter Guys.
If I were to buy a new unit, I'd get one from one of the site sponsors. Not much difference in price, and you can get the vertical DI with it. I've had good luck with The Filter Guys.
Like I said...
Like I said...
Like I said earlier, Carlos... this is a lot like the Skimmer threads. Certain members buy the high dollar units and then feel obligated to defend their purchases...despite positive results that other have experienced. Like, it's my way or the wrong way...
I think if I read "with RO/DI you get what you pay for" one more time, I'm going to choke... :smokin:
The original poster came on here looking for a "low cost alternative" to get RO/DI. He was asking for a Kia or a Ford Focus. The "salesmen" keep pushing the pickup or the SUV. Ah,me.
By the way, my pre-DI TDS is 3. Post DI is still zero. That's after I made up a batch of 35 gallons this afternoon for next weekend's water changes. I'm now making another 30 gallons for my top-off reservoir.
It's been a pleasure reading the posts by Carlos and others - well reasoned and supported by actual experience with value priced RO/DI systems...
LL
Like I said...
Like I said earlier, Carlos... this is a lot like the Skimmer threads. Certain members buy the high dollar units and then feel obligated to defend their purchases...despite positive results that other have experienced. Like, it's my way or the wrong way...
I think if I read "with RO/DI you get what you pay for" one more time, I'm going to choke... :smokin:
The original poster came on here looking for a "low cost alternative" to get RO/DI. He was asking for a Kia or a Ford Focus. The "salesmen" keep pushing the pickup or the SUV. Ah,me.
By the way, my pre-DI TDS is 3. Post DI is still zero. That's after I made up a batch of 35 gallons this afternoon for next weekend's water changes. I'm now making another 30 gallons for my top-off reservoir.
It's been a pleasure reading the posts by Carlos and others - well reasoned and supported by actual experience with value priced RO/DI systems...
LL
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Carlos, I did read most of your post. I am not disputing the readings or your honesty
As for "quality" if you poke around you will find literaly dozens of threads where people have not been so lucky with the discount units and membranes.
There IS a difference between cheap prefilters and quality prefilters. The difference is what gets passed to the membrane, this affecting the overall life of the membrane.
Many of the discount houses use lower quality membranes or "rejects" that are purchased at a discount. It is a crap shoot when you order. Worse yet, many of the vendors post outright lies regarding the brand and/or specifications of what they are selling.
There is a difference in DI resins and it is fairly evident that many of the discount vendors use lower quality or expired resins purchased at discount.
The quality of the housing and fittings can be suspect and there are several reports of failure and flooding. This is not anecdotal, there have been many threads on the subject, some with photos.
You may be having success with the horizontal resin chambers turned on end, but that configuration still allows channeling. It has also a know fact that many of the discount vendors do not pack their DI resin tight enough. This can allow bypassing and channeling. Not all the resin gets used up.
Customer service has been mentioned. It may not be of relevance to you, but it is to many other people.
Yes, you may have a system that is working great and is cost effective. There is no dispute there.
I have no dog in the fight, I don't work for or get anything from any of the RO/DI vendors. In all honesty I stopped using DI a few months back because I have been too lazy to order refills. (I CAN see a difference in the tank for the worse BTW).
When you order one of the discount units, you are taking a gamble. If you lose, there are no savings. Some people win, that is why those places are still in business.
Many of the "I love my unit" posts come from people who do not know how to properly evaluate the performance of the system. When the specifics are pointed out, many are suddenly not so thrilled once they see the actual output numbers and operating costs of their systems or have to deal with the non-existent customer service.
You and others here may be the exception. Anway, I have offered my opinion. It is yours or anybodys to take or leave.
Have fun.
As for "quality" if you poke around you will find literaly dozens of threads where people have not been so lucky with the discount units and membranes.
There IS a difference between cheap prefilters and quality prefilters. The difference is what gets passed to the membrane, this affecting the overall life of the membrane.
Many of the discount houses use lower quality membranes or "rejects" that are purchased at a discount. It is a crap shoot when you order. Worse yet, many of the vendors post outright lies regarding the brand and/or specifications of what they are selling.
There is a difference in DI resins and it is fairly evident that many of the discount vendors use lower quality or expired resins purchased at discount.
The quality of the housing and fittings can be suspect and there are several reports of failure and flooding. This is not anecdotal, there have been many threads on the subject, some with photos.
You may be having success with the horizontal resin chambers turned on end, but that configuration still allows channeling. It has also a know fact that many of the discount vendors do not pack their DI resin tight enough. This can allow bypassing and channeling. Not all the resin gets used up.
Customer service has been mentioned. It may not be of relevance to you, but it is to many other people.
Yes, you may have a system that is working great and is cost effective. There is no dispute there.
I have no dog in the fight, I don't work for or get anything from any of the RO/DI vendors. In all honesty I stopped using DI a few months back because I have been too lazy to order refills. (I CAN see a difference in the tank for the worse BTW).
When you order one of the discount units, you are taking a gamble. If you lose, there are no savings. Some people win, that is why those places are still in business.
Many of the "I love my unit" posts come from people who do not know how to properly evaluate the performance of the system. When the specifics are pointed out, many are suddenly not so thrilled once they see the actual output numbers and operating costs of their systems or have to deal with the non-existent customer service.
You and others here may be the exception. Anway, I have offered my opinion. It is yours or anybodys to take or leave.
Have fun.
luke33
In Memoriam
I use the water general. If you post you use one around here you pretty much get bashed. Its been 6mths straight using the 100gph unit, although it produces more like 75gpd. I have 400tds coming out of the tap. Its hooked up after my water softener and it gives me 6 after the ro unit and 0 after the di unit. I imagine i'll replace the di with a horizontal unit when it comes time to replace it but i see no problems with this unit at all. Sure it may be cheap and not clear or pretty, but like many things in this world pretty doesn't always mean performance. I have no complaints and neither do my reef inhabitants. Sure its not as nice as the spectapure but imo this is all about reaching zero tds. Whatever gets you there gets you there.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Re: Like I said...
Re: Like I said...
Re: Like I said...
That is pretty much an insult and certainly has nothing to do with the motivation of myself or people like AZrat. I have no impetus to defend my "high priced purchase", on the contrary I am the exact opposite. I will openly beat up any product, no matter how much I paid for it, if it does not perform as expected or at a value consistent with its price.
Thanks, Luke.
LL
Re: Re: Like I said...
Re: Re: Like I said...
Have you ever owned a Water General product?
LL
Re: Re: Like I said...
Have you ever owned a Water General product?
LL
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Why is it that we label people as bashers, when they are only kindly offering their opinion and what they feel is supporting information.
Come on guys, lets not turn this into something it is not.
I am so sick of this I can puke!!!!!!! You all Fleebay people miss the point, so later I up grade speand more money, after you are on reef forum with your algae/phophate problem!!!!!! And it comes down to your water!!!! Then you talk saving 100.00 on a unit that has to much waste to RODI water and price, but you do not equat that and look at your water bill and add that into your Fleebay unit. We are not here to bash you, just we have learned the hard way and figured it out, I had a exwife that had to fall and break her nose to learn, enstead of watching someone else do the same thing so she did not have to fall and break her nose. That is why she is the ex!!!!
LOL, take a chill. We aren't discussing world hunger here.
I dont have a PO4 problem
I dont have a waste water problem
I dont have an algae problem
My wife has not broken her nose
I dont want to puke. Feeling fine, thanks!
BTW, I'm not advocating buying an RO/DI system from Ebay. I posted previously that I would use one of the site sponsors if I were shopping for one. What I am saying is I've seen plenty of posts of people having good luck with the systems and they are not as horrific as some make them out to be. Not all EBay sellers/products are the same. You cant lump them all into a single category good or bad.
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Todd March
Premium Member
Try Aqua Safe Canada on Ebay. I have been using their RO/DI units for around 6 years. They are great and AFFORDABLE! You can get one shipped for just a tad over $100. They sell cheap refills too.
They even have a new unit for reef aquarists that has extra DI cartridges I think...
They even have a new unit for reef aquarists that has extra DI cartridges I think...
RichConley
New member
Only if you have High TDS out of the tap.
For those of us under 100 ppm TDs, cost of DI will NEVER offset the higher initial cost. We throw filters out because of lenght of time, not because they get exhausted.
If you're TDS is high, of course, buy a great unit. If its sub 100, you can buy the cheap one and not worry about it.
xtm
Active member
LOL I am a proud owner of a "Water General" .. :lol:
but don't be fooled. This unit is a Honda Civic body with Ferrari engine, as the filters are all Spectrapures! (except the sediment cart. on this pic)
Here's my review: This unit is about 3 years old and it still works.. the housing is fine, etc. The problem is that when I bought the unit, the cartridges were EXHAUSTED after just 3 months. No joke. (my tap is only 180 tds) I ended up spending more money to get QUALITY filters--- theSpectrapure Di-SB add-on, ZetaZorb filters, Chlorine guzzler, etc. I ended up spending DOUBLE the amount on upgrades when I could've bought a far superior unit from the get-go (a MaxCap) for the same price!
It's one of those things in this hobby that you learn... do a research, learn from other's mistakes, and NEVER skimp on quality filters.
P.S. notice how I threw away the inline DI that came with the watergeneral.. it's a POS. It was reading 2 tds after the DI resin!!
but don't be fooled. This unit is a Honda Civic body with Ferrari engine, as the filters are all Spectrapures! (except the sediment cart. on this pic)
Here's my review: This unit is about 3 years old and it still works.. the housing is fine, etc. The problem is that when I bought the unit, the cartridges were EXHAUSTED after just 3 months. No joke. (my tap is only 180 tds) I ended up spending more money to get QUALITY filters--- theSpectrapure Di-SB add-on, ZetaZorb filters, Chlorine guzzler, etc. I ended up spending DOUBLE the amount on upgrades when I could've bought a far superior unit from the get-go (a MaxCap) for the same price!
It's one of those things in this hobby that you learn... do a research, learn from other's mistakes, and NEVER skimp on quality filters.P.S. notice how I threw away the inline DI that came with the watergeneral.. it's a POS. It was reading 2 tds after the DI resin!!
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