doctorgori
New member
Pssst ...does anyone even remember the original topic... :worried:
Anyway is this stuff horse pucky or not?
I vote Horse puckey
Anyway is this stuff horse pucky or not?
I vote Horse puckey
EcoSystems
- Thread starter Hdhuntr01
- Start date
I'll say this. As a personal friend of Leng Sy, I have spent a lot of time at his headquarters and seen his tanks. They do look pretty darn good.
He never says that coral thrives in murky, high nutrient environments. He is typically against protein skimmers, because of the amount of CO2 they inject into a given system. His best tanks are run skimmerless, unless they have a high fish load, in which case the skimmer is run only at night. He also advocates regular water change schedules, and to change the mud after 6 mos to 1 year, depending on bio-load. Now, Miracle Mud comes in trays that are easily removable without disturbing the substrate.
That said:
I don't use miracle mud in my system, since I don't believe I need it. I use biopellets and a strong skimmer, and that works fine for me. I have used Miracle Mud in the past and it acts like a remote DSB. Like any DSB methodology, one must change the substrate once it's saturated.
So, it's basically a system to mimic a DSB, it's not horsepucky or snake oil, it does work.
He never says that coral thrives in murky, high nutrient environments. He is typically against protein skimmers, because of the amount of CO2 they inject into a given system. His best tanks are run skimmerless, unless they have a high fish load, in which case the skimmer is run only at night. He also advocates regular water change schedules, and to change the mud after 6 mos to 1 year, depending on bio-load. Now, Miracle Mud comes in trays that are easily removable without disturbing the substrate.
That said:
I don't use miracle mud in my system, since I don't believe I need it. I use biopellets and a strong skimmer, and that works fine for me. I have used Miracle Mud in the past and it acts like a remote DSB. Like any DSB methodology, one must change the substrate once it's saturated.
So, it's basically a system to mimic a DSB, it's not horsepucky or snake oil, it does work.
doctorgori
New member
^ Hmmm...interesting indeed....heck I won't buck a personal observation from a reliable source...
but then that begs this question: I wonder then if there is some distinguishing characteristic that diferentiates Miracle Mud from plain ole garden clay...
put another way: can Garden Clay achieve similar results?
but then that begs this question: I wonder then if there is some distinguishing characteristic that diferentiates Miracle Mud from plain ole garden clay...
put another way: can Garden Clay achieve similar results?
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JT3069
New member
i like to think it makes a nice place for growing pods in my fuge,along with LR rubble
no really scientific evidence to support any benifits, but i will say i have not noticed any negetive effects from using MM in my refuge,
but i have a 7+ inch sand bed in my dt, don't really know if this effects the effectiveness of MM.
On the topic about clear water my tank is never crystal clear i always have something floating around! if i were to run to much carbon in the filter sock i would lose coloration in all my corals
so this is just my first hand experience with MM and dom and pom's ect...
with no other diving experience, ect...............
no really scientific evidence to support any benifits, but i will say i have not noticed any negetive effects from using MM in my refuge,
but i have a 7+ inch sand bed in my dt, don't really know if this effects the effectiveness of MM.
On the topic about clear water my tank is never crystal clear i always have something floating around! if i were to run to much carbon in the filter sock i would lose coloration in all my corals
so this is just my first hand experience with MM and dom and pom's ect...
with no other diving experience, ect...............
Jimmy as I said, there are areas where that unfortunately happens yes but the pictures i am showing here show one of SPS farm in bali. These SPS are grown on natural sea coastal water area at sarangan bali. We dont grow sps on tanks for export. These are marine aquacultured sps that you guys receive in the US and the whole world.
CV Dinar one of the largest coral exporter in Indonesia also has a site in this location. The water is great and have all they need to grow sps.
These SPS frags are grown and taken from their "mother" specimen. These specimens could be obtained on the wild or from intensionally grown frags.
As a side point, the supports holding up the corals look like crap with all the algae and I wouldn't want them in my tank.
Hahahaha, u know what they trim everything prior to ship so you see those nicely frags on a clean coraline grown stone. You guys only see the good view...u never know how they do stuff here. lol But behold guys...this is where your frags are from! You guys probably assumed that your frags came from a pristine crystal clear tank with running zeo system in Indonesia? Well think again hehehe...they dont grow frags in aquarium like you guys there...they grow these frags near the beach.
free samples are just a hand pick away...just pack up and I'll meet u in Bali. We'll do a little bit of shop-snorkle in SPS supermarket. Just grab your floating trolley and browse around the metal frames blocks (hundreds of them) and pick whatever you like and pay at the cashiers on the beach...its that simple...free samples are again...available
I can even arrange for u to be able bring those frags pass the airport security...seriously
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Pssst ...does anyone even remember the original topic... :worried:
Anyway is this stuff horse pucky or not?
I vote Horse puckey
Well original topic title is ecosystem...so it does mean ecosystem lol. Apart from the OP original intention of bringing out the brand for investigation hehehe
dzhuo
Active member
Like many of the addictives, coral foods, chemicals etc that enter this hobby, there are people who took the time to understand what they are and provide evident (or at least data) of how and why or why don't they work. Miracle Mud is no exception. There was an independent study done (by Northern Analytical Laboratories, Inc., Merrimack, NH) on the content of it and what the manufacture claim. The analysis reveals the mud is roughly 63% quartz sand, with no carbonates (by an acid test), no shell fragments or oolitic sand grains, etc. Not only that, the mud is high in aluminum, iron and titanium:
EcoSystems Miracle Mud Analysis
If I were to make a choice, I would not want to waste my money on the mud.
EcoSystems Miracle Mud Analysis
If I were to make a choice, I would not want to waste my money on the mud.
elegance coral
They call me EC
Can you post a link to where you read that ocean acidification is having a negative effect on coral reefs today? Scientists fear this will become a problem in the future, but I'm not aware of any research showing that it's having an impact today. The last I checked the ocean PH has only dropped by about 1/3 of one PH point during the industrial age.
Global warming is having an impact on coral reefs around the globe, but its hard to say it's causing more damage than nutrification. Even Ivan has told us that the reefs where he's from are doing worse near populated land. There's no mystery as to why isolated reefs out in the Pacific are doing much better than those closer to where we live. We're killing the reefs by putting "stuff" in the water. We're increasing the nutrient content of the waters where these coral reefs once flourished. Now they're dying. The same thing happens in our reef tanks.
White pox, the disease that's killing off large numbers of reef building corals in the Caribbean has been show to be caused by a microbe that lives in human and animal fecal matter. Combine that with videos like the one below, and it becomes obvious what's killing the Caribbean reefs, and it's not global warming.
Just as a side note, listen close at about 1:58 where the lady describes the water before the out fall as "crystal clear". LOL
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SHzaEGYLyEI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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jimmy frag
New member
i have been to many resorts in Jamaica and Mexico and was floored to see simular pipes of sewage dumping only yards away from where you would swim. Occidental Grand Xcaret Mexico and Beaches Boscobel Jamaica just to name a couple. it is amazing just how much agea feeds on the crap and lack of wild life in the surrounding area
This is Yos, the care taker of Serangan Accro Farm bali, it houses more than 100 kind of different SPS corals. And there are more than 1000 pieces of sps frags in this location alone. Bali has 3 SPS aquaculture farm. Serangan is one of the biggest farm. It is developed and supported by local government, major exporters and of course the humble Bali people.
Yos and his kungfu kick
Yos and his kungfu kick
jimmy frag
New member
we all know where our coral comes from and how it is farmed, this is nothing new. a farm is NOT a reef. look at your pictures, if that green algae starts to grow on the reef as it is on your frags, it would smother the coral in no time. your frag is being tended to by people and harvested in 5-6 months. if you want to convince me of anything, plant a reef. and the gulf waters are no different than yours.
Yeah but the SPS are growing and not bleaching or whatever you call it. And sorry its not like the gulf water. You assume too much mister. You've never been here but you talk like you know everything. We still have lots of beautiful protected dive sites. Is this common attitude ? I am not too sure.
Plant a reef? Lol we have. Again you don't know much but you assumed too much. The local government with the support of world body (UN? not too sure) have already planted some kind of concrete blocks/cylindrical shapes around thousand islands on the north of java to help the reef grows and I saw coral life is growing there. It is artificial reef yes but at least we try to build and sustain our coral reefs back. And it's showing good result.
And I dont really believe you are an importer as you dont know anything about legality of SPS export. If you are let me know your company by PM as I work with exporters as well.
Yos have grown montiporas accroporas melioporas etc for the purpose of establishing Parent corals. These parent corals are harvested later and they grow these parent corals for MORE THAN 1 year!! Again you assume too much. There are SPS here who live for more than 3 years. And they are big and these are fragged regularly. There are algaes of course. Do you assume that SPS dont live where algae live? You are so wrong mister. The algae do not live on the corals, they live on the ropes and the metal frames but never on corals. These frags are growing in fast rate around 0.5 cm a month.
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jimmy frag
New member
Ivan. its a great thing that your and surounding government are doing things to protect the reefs and starting artificial reefs. lets hope its enough. this discusion was more in lines of healthy reefs thriving in pristine water conditions. those racks of frags you showed us, if left un attended, would be dead in a short time. this is not an attack on you and did not mean in any way to dissrespect you. i am an importer and have been for many years, i do know the laws and how things work. its a fine line and a vary vary crooked business. the Gulf has many healthy areas that are protected and others that are just dead. same as yours
They do maintenance on the farm and of course like any other farm or in reef area wherever it is...the healthy corals are never get covered by algae, the algae are on the ropes and the substrate but never kill the corals. The only thing that kills the corals are local competition, some local thugs may destroy an area if their demands are not met.
The corals on the contrary of what you believe is living healthy in this area. Full of organic particles.This is also what was my previous intention to explain. But some people are quite brainwashed with googles and books and articles without wanting to look at the reality. No such thing as crystal clear or whatever you name it water, period. Becaus I have seen these corals grow and thrive, I have dived and I have snorkled. I saw euphylias, cynarinas, huge pile of gonioporas, and others too long to mention...in clean water but floating organic particles are always around them.
The corals on the contrary of what you believe is living healthy in this area. Full of organic particles.This is also what was my previous intention to explain. But some people are quite brainwashed with googles and books and articles without wanting to look at the reality. No such thing as crystal clear or whatever you name it water, period. Becaus I have seen these corals grow and thrive, I have dived and I have snorkled. I saw euphylias, cynarinas, huge pile of gonioporas, and others too long to mention...in clean water but floating organic particles are always around them.
elegance coral
They call me EC
I'm not the one doing the assuming here. I didn't say that "lagoons" were "full" of rubble and dead corals. If anything, I said the area where these racks are, is full of rubble and dead corals. Of course there are corals that live in lagoons. "Coral" can live in many habitats, including the deep ocean. I never said there wasn't living coral in a lagoon. There are many different habitats that can be found in lagoons. Silt beds, sandy areas, rubble zones, grass flats, hard bottom, patch reefs................ A lagoon is still a lagoon, no matter what habitat you happen to be in within the lagoon.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...HxgT-DXFKXW2AWxmZWACA&ved=0CFwQ9QEwBg&dur=818
See the diagram above. A lagoon is a lagoon. It is not a "growing reef". It may contain patch reefs that are growing, but a lagoon is a lagoon.
look at the date I joined this site. That's the date I became active on the internet. Roughly five years ago. I have twenty years of studying, and swimming on and around coral reefs, prior to that. It's hard to say I'm simply a graduate of "Google State University".
I don't know about "gospel", but if someone reads my posts and it causes them to keep their pets in a clean, nutrient poor, and healthy environment where they can flourish, I haven't wasted my time.
Please, by all means. Show us these holes. It is completely meaningless to say that someone is wrong without the ability to explain how they're wrong, or provide evidence that shows they're wrong.
I think we/I understand full well how resilient corals can be. We farm them in very harsh environments, we stuff then in tiny bags and ship them all over the globe, we package and unpackage them multiple times, we expose them to extremes of temperature, we mix them in containers exposing them to infectious microbes and parasites they may have never come in contact with, and yet many still manage to survive and make it to our tanks.
It's not about how "resilient" these animals can be. It's about providing them with a habitat they can grow and flourish in. We want our corals to grow, prosper, and be with us for years to come. For that, they need clean, healthy, nutrient poor, environments. Not nutrient laden swamps.
What is "the driving factor"????
So you post to say I'm wrong, while providing absolutely nothing to back up your statements, then leave. Well......bye bye then.:wave:
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