Electrical Help - Breaker Panel

[chatyak]

Yes - I placed the wire in the metal pressure compression plate and simply tightened the screw a lot - it is very snug. I cannot find any rules regarding the use of stranded vs solid for the outlets - but the consensus seems to be that solid is the way to go when terminating at the screw in terms of best practice and reliability.

I will see what I can find in way of 14 solid green wire tomorrow for the ground..... online shows nothing in stock :-/

 

[bighead]

I am an electrician for 20+ years the questions you are asking here are good questions but you should not be doing electric work for one you can only use green for a ground and you can not use stranded wire on a rec screw must be solid or use a forked crimp on fitting
It only takes one bad connection to ruin your tank and worse set your house in fire
If your grounding is done wrong you can get electric current in your tank not good you can actually put your hand in the water and touch ground and electrocute your self
If I were you all a pro electrician looks but it is not

 

[chatyak]

I am an electrician for 20+ years the questions you are asking here are good questions but you should not be doing electric work for one you can only use green for a ground and you can not use stranded wire on a rec screw must be solid or use a forked crimp on fitting
It only takes one bad connection to ruin your tank and worse set your house in fire
If your grounding is done wrong you can get electric current in your tank not good you can actually put your hand in the water and touch ground and electrocute your self
If I were you all a pro electrician looks but it is not

I will find a solid 14 green to use for the grounds. Am very meticulous about the work so will make sure it is done properly. Last time I hired someone it wasn't even done correctly and I found that out years after the fact when another person who was hired came to do other work. I rather learn and do it myself and have the knowledge.

I also have the gfi tester tool which color-codes and shows you if it was installed correctly. Am not in a rush, just want it to be done properly. Next step is getting the green solid and then switching out the red for black hot wires.

In theory, if the ground was done improperly and I put my hand in the water and got shocked - is this just a minor shock or a life threatening insta-kill? This isn't the same as holding both main lug-nuts in the breaker panel at the same time... correct?

 

[daks]

"Romex" / NMD90 Is not listed for exposed wiring in table 19 of the OESC and rule 4-008. So unless that part is behind a wall it's gotta be in a raceway(conduit), AC or TEC cable.

PVC is discoraged inside residential dwellings because of the toxic fumes during a fire.

rule 4-038 1)a) says all insulated grounding and bonding conductors must be green.

 

[jerpa]

In theory, if the ground was done improperly and I put my hand in the water and got shocked - is this just a minor shock or a life threatening insta-kill? This isn't the same as holding both main lug-nuts in the breaker panel at the same time... correct?

It depends on how bad you mess it up. Working with line voltage always presents the possibility of death by electrocution. This is why several have commented that the nature of the questions you have asked suggest you may be in a bit over your head. Sadly calling a pro is no guarantee that it will be done properly either. At this point I would slow down and do a bit more research or call someone in.

 

[chatyak]

It depends on how bad you mess it up. Working with line voltage always presents the possibility of death by electrocution. This is why several have commented that the nature of the questions you have asked suggest you may be in a bit over your head. Sadly calling a pro is no guarantee that it will be done properly either. At this point I would slow down and do a bit more research or call someone in.

I have heard of people saying stranded works as well if you reverse twist it and get a good connection like I did (solid also presents a chance to undo itself) but I will do the solid wire regardless because of it's standard and recommendations.

I'm not worried about doing it wrong - just asking lots of basic questions to clarify things for myself and it helps to know before you go live.

Woudlnt' the GFI work with only hot/neutral regardless (if the ground was done wrong etc)?

 

[jerpa]

You are correct that you can make a fine connection with stranded wire and you described the best way IMO. It isn't against code here but most consider it easier to have a bad connection versus solid. The color is more of an issue.

A GFCI will function properly without a ground. It is only concerned with a discrepancy in current between the hot and neutral.

 

[Mike31154]

Quite a read this & you are a determined fellow! On your next trip to the Home Depot or electrical supply store, see if they have a book by PS Knight called the Electrical Code Simplified House Wiring Guide - Book 1, Ontario. It will be very well worth the $20 that it costs and save you a lot of typing on this forum. It has a nice table of fill limits for various size boxes.

http://www.psknight.com/

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/on-electrical-code-simplified-bk-1/818808

Now at the risk of being anal, your first set of photos of the breaker panel at the beginning of the thread, with respect to the extra long ground wire. While it's not necessarily a problem, the extra length does have the potential of it shorting against one of the live buses in the electrical panel if someone's inattentive while working in there, so shortening that long loop may not be a bad idea, but that's just me. It's fine as long as the wrong person doesn't go fiddling around in there and moves it too close to the 125 volt line. If that happens, there will be sparks. Might not get shocked, but the unlucky person will certainly jump & could bump their head on something. Don't have to get too drastic, just to clean it up a bit, workmanship you know. A small service loop is always a good idea for future work. As far as the concern of it being too short if it needs to be moved, note that there are a number of grounding bars above & below the centre one, so you have some leeway there in that case.

The braided wire you have could be tinned with solder at the end to make it more secure under the screw terminals on your GFI receptacle. Not sure how legal that is according to code in your area though. Couldn't tell exactly on the GFI devices you bought, but some of the ones I've installed have much better, clamp type terminals that actually have room for two wires on the line side and will hold a stranded wire just as securely as a solid, since both push straight in and are clamped in when you tighten the screw.

Finally, you may consider the requirement for a permit for the work you're doing. In BC it's actually a legal requirement, but in any case, doing work without a permit has the potential of voiding your insurance, so something to think about. Getting a permit will also mean there will be an inspector checking your work when completed, so the book I linked to earlier will again help pay for itself. Best of luck & happy wiring.

 

[chatyak]

"Romex" / NMD90 Is not listed for exposed wiring in table 19 of the OESC and rule 4-008. So unless that part is behind a wall it's gotta be in a raceway(conduit), AC or TEC cable.

PVC is discoraged inside residential dwellings because of the toxic fumes during a fire.

rule 4-038 1)a) says all insulated grounding and bonding conductors must be green.

Thanks. Will fix it with green even though it is just me who will be using/understanding it.

I was always under the impression that romex cable should not be encapsulated in conduit because of over heating issues.

The romex goes along the ceiling beams etc... so I will leave that part how it is.

 

[chatyak]

Quite a read this & you are a determined fellow! On your next trip to the Home Depot or electrical supply store, see if they have a book by PS Knight called the Electrical Code Simplified House Wiring Guide - Book 1, Ontario. It will be very well worth the $20 that it costs and save you a lot of typing on this forum. It has a nice table of fill limits for various size boxes.

http://www.psknight.com/

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/on-electrical-code-simplified-bk-1/818808

Now at the risk of being anal, your first set of photos of the breaker panel at the beginning of the thread, with respect to the extra long ground wire. While it's not necessarily a problem, the extra length does have the potential of it shorting against one of the live buses in the electrical panel if someone's inattentive while working in there, so shortening that long loop may not be a bad idea, but that's just me. It's fine as long as the wrong person doesn't go fiddling around in there and moves it too close to the 125 volt line. If that happens, there will be sparks. Might not get shocked, but the unlucky person will certainly jump & could bump their head on something. Don't have to get too drastic, just to clean it up a bit, workmanship you know. A small service loop is always a good idea for future work. As far as the concern of it being too short if it needs to be moved, note that there are a number of grounding bars above & below the centre one, so you have some leeway there in that case.

The braided wire you have could be tinned with solder at the end to make it more secure under the screw terminals on your GFI receptacle. Not sure how legal that is according to code in your area though. Couldn't tell exactly on the GFI devices you bought, but some of the ones I've installed have much better, clamp type terminals that actually have room for two wires on the line side and will hold a stranded wire just as securely as a solid, since both push straight in and are clamped in when you tighten the screw.

Finally, you may consider the requirement for a permit for the work you're doing. In BC it's actually a legal requirement, but in any case, doing work without a permit has the potential of voiding your insurance, so something to think about. Getting a permit will also mean there will be an inspector checking your work when completed, so the book I linked to earlier will again help pay for itself. Best of luck & happy wiring.

Thank you for your insights Mike - I will look into that book. I also skimmed over the costs of an inspection and it was around $250 I think for having an inspector come to a home.

The GFI outlets I have are Pass & Seymound / Legrand.

The compression plate fitting you mention is on both hot/neutral. The ground is the only one with a screw terminal. Do they sell GFI outlets that have the ground as a compression plate fitting too?

 

[chatyak]

You are correct that you can make a fine connection with stranded wire and you described the best way IMO. It isn't against code here but most consider it easier to have a bad connection versus solid. The color is more of an issue.

A GFCI will function properly without a ground. It is only concerned with a discrepancy in current between the hot and neutral.

Thanks jerpa. In theory then - how would improperly wiring the ground be dangerous if the GFI still functions properly? The other fellow mentioned I would become the ground with hands in the tank.

If the GFI is functioning by monitor neutral/hot - would that situation not arise? This is more understanding the electricity behind it all. I plan to wire the ground properly....

Thanks

 

[jerpa]

Thanks jerpa. In theory then - how would improperly wiring the ground be dangerous if the GFI still functions properly? The other fellow mentioned I would become the ground with hands in the tank.

If the GFI is functioning by monitor neutral/hot - would that situation not arise? This is more understanding the electricity behind it all. I plan to wire the ground properly....

Thanks

The danger from the lack of, or improper connection of, a ground wire is unrelated to the GFI. A bad house ground can allow many parts of the structure to become energized if any device in the house faults to ground. An improper connection can also turn what is supposed to be a very low resistance path to a high resistance path. Higher resistance will generate more heat, which could lead to a fire. The high resistance path could also present a situation where you touch something that is energized and you now provide the least resistance to ground.

If the tank is energized from a source independent of the GFI it will not sense a fault because it monitors ONLY the current flowing from the receptacles hot contact to it's own neutral contact and the flow through any hot/neutral wires run off the load side.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Thanks jerpa. In theory then - how would improperly wiring the ground be dangerous if the GFI still functions properly? The other fellow mentioned I would become the ground with hands in the tank.

If the GFI is functioning by monitor neutral/hot - would that situation not arise? This is more understanding the electricity behind it all. I plan to wire the ground properly....

Thanks

The color of the wire has nothing to do with functionality, it will function the same as a green colored or bare copper wire. So from an electrical standpoint it's fine. The problem is that they have different colored wires for a reason, because most of the time wires are buried somewhere in conduit or in NM sheathing or what not and you only can see the two ends, and more often than not the only way you know where the wire goes is due to labeling, and what those wires do is due to labeling in the case of wires that labeling is the color coding of the wire.

Now you might know what they all go to, at least today when you wire it, but like many codes, they're also designed for someone down the line who might be there. So someone sees a black wire in your panel box, they think it should be hooked up to a breaker, perhaps they install one, hook up the black to it, and next thing you know your ground is energized which depending upon how that ground ties into the rest of the house (copper pipes, gas pipes, etc) it can spell for a dangerous situation. What I see from that junction box is two phases of a 120V source, red and black and opposite phases of the hot, and the white is a neutral, with no ground in the box. Whether or not it's wired that way is a whole other story.

Also AFAIK, if you can't find a green wire, you can use bare copper. Although codes might be different there.

 

[chatyak]

Well I went everywhere today - not ONE store has 14 gauge single wire in solid green. Everything is stranded.

Now I'm stuck :mad2:. :deadhorse:


Wait - could I simply unsheath the cable wrapping on the romex cable I have and then use the single ground solid wire from that? (instead of trying to find one at the store)

 

[Paul B]

Just tape it green. The wire don't know. They made taping small wires illegal here but no one goes by that. If I was using stranded wire under a screw I would strip it about 3" long and cut off 2 strands. Than take one strand and wrap it tightly over all the rest of the strands nice and neat. It then acts like a solid wire.
Is that legal? I don't know but being I did wiring in half the buildings in NYC, and worked on the construction of the rest of them, none of them burned down yet so what the heck.

 

[chatyak]

I just took the cable wrap off the romex - I can use the ground wire from that - but it is bare copper and has no green tubing on it. Would this be okay? If I tape it - what kind of tape and where do I tape it?

I found this on a search - not sure if it is still true or whether it applies to me... I can't see the ground corroding out on me...

According to Table 19 of CEC Part 1, you would need to use an insulated or sheathed cable. As this is in a conduit, I would suspect the reasoning to be that moisture through condensation could occur within the conduit which, over time, could cause the bare wire to rust and corrode.
Source(s):
2002 CEC Part 1

Trying to find where in the code it says it's ok or not - but it's mumbo-jumbo to me.

 

[Paul B]

That is fine and is also what happens to Romex all the time.

 

[chatyak]

Hi Paul,

I will do this then tonight and post more pictures. I'm going to remove the red wire - switch the black to hot, leave the white as neutral (those 2 are stranded but are connected via the compression plate w/ screw) and then use the bare copper for ground. I appreciate the help... will update soon. You don't think it will corrode due to moisture? I don't think it will.... but I'm not an expert.

 

[Paul B]

No, forget the moisture. Aluminum used to corrode which is why there are a lot of black places where there used to be buildings.

 

[chatyak]

Thank you. Update here soon.