Electrician here...If you need advice or help

[bigdaddystar]

Gfi's are finicky.....especially as they get older

just like say plug a microwave into one...they usually will not trip....but every once in a while they will....they should only trip when the incoming voltage varies from on the outcoming side (neutral) meaning something happen to the circuit like you are being shocked by it....but of course a gfi reacts within 1/60 of a cycle roughly a **** hair of a second...so you cant get shocked....

that is the only time they should trip....and gfi's have absolutely nothing to do with grounds...simply put if 2 people walk in and only one person walks out it trips....it see difference in potential line in line out...hot in ...neutral out.

question:

will a gfi trip if you arent using a ground probe, and if so, under what conditions? please list the possibilities, so that a 2 year old can understand,,, (referring to me of course)


thanks

 

[letsgofishin]

I just picked up a new tank myself a leemar 140 ish gallons 48x30x20 starphire all around not quite sure what that measures out too...but a very nice set-up

how 'precises' do you want to get? are the dimensions, 'inside' or 'outside' dimensions? that adds or subtracts an inch to the volume calculation.

but assuming the dimensions are outside dimms, the actual inside areas/volume is

47x29xhow ever high the water level is...i will assume 1" less then maxium height for this calc..


(LxWxH)/231

47x29x19 ) x 231 = 112gallons

kinda a lot of difference in water volume when working of suppliments and all that...

 

[bigdaddystar]

yeah i was just factoring that a 4x2x2 is 120g...and this is a little bigger than that...but yeah actually volume and what they tell you it is are always to different stories....kinda like hard drives and ipod 80g...somehow gets turned into 71.2g when you look into it

 

[letsgofishin]

Gfi's are finicky.....especially as they get older

just like say plug a microwave into one...they usually will not trip....but every once in a while they will....they should only trip when the incoming voltage varies from on the outcoming side (neutral) meaning something happen to the circuit like you are being shocked by it....but of course a gfi reacts within 1/60 of a cycle roughly a **** hair of a second...so you cant get shocked....

that is the only time they should trip....and gfi's have absolutely nothing to do with grounds...simply put if 2 people walk in and only one person walks out it trips....it see difference in potential line in line out...hot in ...neutral out.

wow.. that is the best explanation i have ever heard... i love it..

so, to further examplify?? the issue... if there is 'stray' current/voltage in the tank then the GFI should trip, (if within it's tolerance/trip level)

if you are feeling/detecting that stray current, then you are providing a better path then what was there, so you could be increasing the voltage, and if the gfi hadnt tripped because it was still under it's threshold, you might increase it enough to trip it when you feel, again, assuming your action resulted in a better pathway and the current was sufficient to trip the gfi...

 

[bigdaddystar]

just 2 lawrence...I had a 12g nano set-up but i tore it down and sold it in aticioation of this one...2 is enough...I mean I actually have alot more tanks around but set up just 1 now and soon to be 2..

I am clearing house no more hoarding..I got all i need so soon I will be posting a garage sale...got to much junk......I need to fund this tank

Hopes and goals are a BK skimmer...tunze nano wavebox or 2 if it doesnt do the job...lighting will probably be halide...but I have a 48" tek 8 I will try out first and see if I like it...if not lumenarcs with radiums.

How many tanks do you have now Paul?

 

[bigdaddystar]

No stray voltage will not be picked up by a gfi because that part like I said is more like static electricity...think of your living on those oddly weathered days when you see your kids hair stand up because of the electricity in the air from storms....there are always electrons present in everyday life...they are usualy create more by turbulence....like say the motor turning in your skimmer is going to create friction and friction is of course is electricity...its harmless but you get enough of it and i could see a danger to fish...so in essence our tank are mini generating plants...I assume thats where the stray voltage is coming from..not from actual voltage leaking into the tank...if that was the case a gfi would trip immediately but friction is seperately derived.

wow.. that is the best explanation i have ever heard... i love it..

so, to further examplify?? the issue... if there is 'stray' current/voltage in the tank then the GFI should trip, (if within it's tolerance/trip level)

if you are feeling/detecting that stray current, then you are providing a better path then what was there, so you could be increasing the voltage, and if the gfi hadnt tripped because it was still under it's threshold, you might increase it enough to trip it when you feel, again, assuming your action resulted in a better pathway and the current was sufficient to trip the gfi...

 

[letsgofishin]

ummm, although i understand almost everything has static electricity and all that. i doubt that most 'shocks' and zaps folks feel are just friction related static electricity..

the voltage is more likely coming from 'leaking' voltage from frayed or exposed conductors...

with that assumption, isnt there a 'tolerance' that the GFI will or wont trip.. like you say, if the zap is extreemly minimal, the gfi wont trip, but if it is larger then it will... based on the difference between the hot and nuetral pathways in the / from the source...

not sure if i can explain it properly.... but therre has to be a limit of what the gfi will and wont trip... and once that limit is exceeded, it trips... but below it wont...

can we feel that 'limit'? if we can feel the infitessimal static electrical zap, i kinda think we should feel the difference of what a gfi can and cant??

 

[bigdaddystar]

Correct....I forget the code for GFI's but it is so minute of a difference I believe its they have to trip if there is even a .06a difference so any stray voltage should trip the gfi and I agree static friction whatever seems far fetched to cause the issue but unless I miss my guess are tanks being a sealed unit could almost act a battery or capacitor for stray voltage to build...It's really hard to say without a electrical engineering degree or extensive hours googling the subject...but knowing how electricity works I would say I am probably not far off. Even the slightest loose connections on say a pump or powerhead would not only short out but would rust immediately even if it didnt and then short out a week later

 

[pga7602]

What does 100AMP panel really mean? That the panel can handle up to 100 amps total usage if I add up all my appliances?

Since the panel takes in two hot wires one on each side with ground being on a shared bus line, does that mean.. i need to balance 50 / 50 amp on either side?

Thanks!

 

[letsgofishin]

im not completely sure, but i think 100a, or whatever the panel is rated at is the maximum safe current that should be run through it.

but i also think it is a function, probably by design of how much space is in the panel for breakers???? although i am not sure how that would work as it dont the difference between a 10a breaker or a 20a?

hmmm...


help? big daddy??? boy that sounds funny commin from a guy...

 

[bigdaddystar]

officially you are never suppose to run a panel past 80% of the main supply...meaning that a 100a main breaker is safely capable of running 80a...because of course if you were to run your main at say 95a continuously it would eventually or possibly trip due to the constant demand...breakers trip in 2 instances overcurrent and heat....

Secondly you are correct you always run your panel evenly...there are 2 hot wires coming in...every other breaker hit a different leg of that main...you will notive the "bussing" thats the metal that the breakers connect too...it alternates each breaker...but you still get a 100a...obviously if you add up all the breakers amps in the panel it exceeds 100a but thats because it is obvious you will not pull all the breakers at full load all the time.

Are you tripping your main breaker right now at all? usually happens when people try to run a spa and multiple other things on a 100a service.

What does 100AMP panel really mean? That the panel can handle up to 100 amps total usage if I add up all my appliances?

Since the panel takes in two hot wires one on each side with ground being on a shared bus line, does that mean.. i need to balance 50 / 50 amp on either side?

Thanks!

 

[letsgofishin]

oh, i didnt read the second part of pga's question.

to understand that better, the two HOT wires will connect to every other breaker, NOT on 'each side', but consecutively, up and down... if you look at the buss.. the buss zig zags, so each breaker is connected to the other hot wire... so run the breakers down one after the other and it will be shared across both hot wires...

 

[letsgofishin]

oh, and for teh max capacity.. if the panel is a 100a panel, does that mean you can put a 100a main breaker in there and then only stuff 80 amps worth of breakers after that?

or is there the main disconnect at/under the main meter, and that meter is rated for x amount of amps and the main panel that is put in after that supposed to be the 80% of the main disconnect?/service?

damn, i cant believe i forgot all this stuff...

 

[moonpod]

Still a bit cloudy and I'm gonna change the front left bulb to a 12x3w Cree 6500k but i think coverage is fine. I might lower bulbs another 2 inches. They are like 18 or so above surface Need to adjust rockwork which is a pain cause my arms are too short but I want something nice and open for fish more than corals. Still I probably need more rock. Only about 50lbs in there and the height isn't right.

 

[bigdaddystar]

Your main braker is the only thing stopping a meltdown....just last week I did a job where the edison lines coming down from the pole were fried and then landed on the ground and caught fire....Now they had a 400a main but edisons supply line was 1 ought wire (good for about 160a) the overcurrent demand caused them to literally melt the sheathing off then short on each other till the blew up and fell to the ground.

Your 100a breaker should not exceed 80a of load....

The average hundred amp panel has these circuits

1-40 or 50a A/C
5-20a for general use
2-15A for general use
1-30a Electrical dryer
add up all those amps and you get
160-170 amps...which is fine because it is known you will not use it all always.

Most homes only draw about 20-30a total (without the A/C running) with a 100a main

 

[MHG]

Old Work Metal Box

Old Work Metal Box

Question oh great controller of electrons...


I have 3 GFI Outlets for my tank... Two independent circuits running to my UPS and one circuit direct to the breaker panel. So since all 3 are independent circuits, I need 3 GFI recepticals. I felt it best to use MC cable (BX for the old timers) since mosy of the run is exposed, over the framing in utility areas. So that means a tripple metal "old wor" gang box. Well good lick finding that, however most of the metal ones come apart and can be ganged together. However I needed to use those madison clips to secure the box into the existing sheet rock.


My concern is the GFI recepticals are huge and fill the box. leaving only about 1/8th of an inch on the side. I wrapped the GFI's with electrical tape to make sure the madison clips do not short out. Plus the screps for terminating the wire are recessed in slightly. Still I am contemplating trying to find a tripple gang old work box, but I can not fild anything that does not require those darn clips.

 

[letsgofishin]

they make a gfi breaker... swap out the standard breakers with gfi..

also, if you are home running the outlets to the main panel with a ground wire, then this is the ideal method for installation/use of a ground probe... tie the ground probe to the ground wire in the outlet box and you will have afairly solid shock prevention system...

 

[bigdaddystar]

Sounds like things are fine...the standard (cut-in boxes) that are gangable are quite shallow for gfi's....but you are on the right track wrapped in electrical tape to prevent contacting one another....I typically will buy the plastic old work cut ins and drill a hole to accept the 1/2" connector on the box...they are usually deeper....I have run into this problem numerous times...the gfis will fit but it is a tight one on the metal boxes....

Gfi breakers is another route..they are 3 times the cost though and if you are not comfortable swapping breakers it can be a chore.....but another option...one I would never take simply because it costs my customer another $70 to do your job.

 

[MHG]

they make a gfi breaker... swap out the standard breakers with gfi..

also, if you are home running the outlets to the main panel with a ground wire, then this is the ideal method for installation/use of a ground probe... tie the ground probe to the ground wire in the outlet box and you will have afairly solid shock prevention system...

I would need to add a small sub panel on the output of my ups to use GFI breakers......

 

[MHG]

Sounds like things are fine...the standard (cut-in boxes) that are gangable are quite shallow for gfi's....but you are on the right track wrapped in electrical tape to prevent contacting one another....I typically will buy the plastic old work cut ins and drill a hole to accept the 1/2" connector on the box...they are usually deeper....I have run into this problem numerous times...the gfis will fit but it is a tight one on the metal boxes....

Gfi breakers is another route..they are 3 times the cost though and if you are not comfortable swapping breakers it can be a chore.....but another option...one I would never take simply because it costs my customer another $70 to do your job.

Well the depth is not an issue because I gought the deeper boxes. I was thinking of using the plastic boxes but I thought that was a no no when using armored cable?