Electronic guys, I need your help!

[sabo]

So I built a homemade battery backup solution for my tank. Problem is that my reef angel controller doesn't like the switch over when the power goes out. I'm thinking I need a capacitor or something to make it more like a ups so the power supply is constant and the controller doesn't reboot when the power goes out and it switches to the inverter. Here's the link to what I'm using, I just need to make it microcontroller friendly.

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/backup_power.html

 

[uncleof6]

i am thinking you need a much better backup solution than a UPS that is not intended to, nor does it run AC motors properly. The controller probably needs a clean AC signal input as well, which is why it is protesting. Get a generator, and stop fussing with equipment that is not intended for use in the task at hand. Doesn't matter if it is in "aquarium literature," or market. That is the last place the information would be valid...

 

[sabo]

Its not an ups. Its a sinewave inverter on a deep cycle battery.

 

[mcgyvr]

switching speed?
You just need to switch faster.
A slower mechanical relay is not the best solution there for anything that can't tolerate the dropout.

But yes a larger cap could be added on the DC input of the reef angel to help with the "longer than optimal" power outage/switch.

 

[uncleof6]

Its not an ups. Its a sinewave inverter on a deep cycle battery.

No matter, same same. Also it is not really safe to be messing around with LA batteries either. There are hundreds if not thousands of words written on how unsafe home brewed systems such as this are not advisable and not safe. It is not as simple as it seems.

When the power goes out, instead of trying to get fancy with a capcitor, just bypass the controller, and go directly to the pumps. They are all that matters, till the utility power comes back up.

 

[fishgate]

To effectively have your system (any system) on reliable backup with no hickups during an outage, it needs to run on the battery portion all the time. Then if power goes out, the battery is still there albeit without a charging source. This is how most data center backup systems work. They are always running on battery being continuously charged.

 

[uncleof6]

With LA batteries on continuous charge, there are issues. They use a voltage-based algorithm similar to Lithium Ion. However, lead acid is sluggish and cannot be charged as quickly as other battery systems. You need to be very careful about your choice of charger, otherwise boom. You need three stages: constant-current charge, topping charge, and float charge. There are also other issues involving ambient temperature or "dancing on the head of the needle." This is not something within the realm of "home brewed" equipment, and LOCAL professionals should be consulted.

 

[CuzzA]

This http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2440002 and problem solved.

 

[uncleof6]

This http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2440002 and problem solved.

And voila: Battery tender trickle charger = exploded battery. A fish forum is the way wrong place to get advice on battery backup systems and the safety there of.

 

[CuzzA]

And voila: Battery tender trickle charger = exploded battery. A fish forum is the way wrong place to get advice on battery backup systems and the safety there of.

Sorry Uncle, you are wrong. A "fish forum" consists of many people from different walks of life. Many of them bring their own specialities from different careers, endeavors and experiences. As you know reefing is unique in that we deal with many different subjects from carpentry, plumbing, chemistry, to yes, electrical.

Perhaps I need to update my illustration and remove the generic term "trickle charger".

From Deltrans website:
http://www.batterytender.com/Chargers/Battery-TenderR-Plus.html

The Battery Tender® Plus is a 1.25 amp battery charger designed to fully charge a battery and maintain it at proper storage voltage without the damaging effects caused by trickle chargers. Included is a quick connect ring terminal harness for hard to reach areas and alligator clips for an alternate connection.
Temperature compensated to ensure optimum charge voltage according to ambient temperature.
Automatically switches from full charge to float charging mode.
Battery Tender® at 1.25 amps will charge as fast or faster than any 3 amp charger available.
Reverse Polarity Protection to ensure user safety. Red & Green Lights Alternately Flash in this condition.
Complete 4-step charging program (Initialization, Bulk Charge, Absorption Mode, Float Mode).
10 year Warranty!

I spoke with every manufacturer of the products I listed in my illustration and they all confirmed my design is perfect and will work flawless. My design is no different than Ecotech's backup or a government regulated emergency exit light backup, other than the fact that mine is more robust, expandable and allows the user to use different appliances in the event of a power outage. It's also far more superior to any UPS, as we know the amp hour ratings on those batteries are typically very low and most of them are not designed for what we intend to backup.

I should also add that I've been using the Battery Tender on my boat batteries for years now and they've performed excellent. It's been many years since I've had to replace a battery and I chalk it up to the Battery Tender. Prior to that I used typical trickle chargers and they did not work well and I was buying marine batteries every other year. Furthermore, my design has performed flawless since implementing it into my marine system. Multiple times my power has shut down and instantly my power heads and Apex brain continued to run.

Now, I will agree that a cheap trickle charger can start a fire. I've seen it in person with my own eyes at my marina.

However, perhaps you should call the manufactures I listed in my illustration and confirm for yourself that my design is indeed perfect before you condem it.

 

[uncleof6]

Yes you need to update the information, but the charger mis-nomer is not the only issue. First AGM stands for Absorbent Glass Mat, not All Glass Mat. Second, talking to folks on the phone, who are most likely sales reps, is not very substantial. The "real" technical and engineering staff don't get paid to answer consumer questions on the telephone. Third, out of responsibility, you should inform folks that you are not the final authority on the topic, and many important points have been overlooked. On forums folks hear what they want to hear, and then take what they hear as the whole story, and promptly get into trouble, becasue they don't care to read any further. In your post you did not link to any informed information, and in a "how to thread" that is a basic responsibility. It is not my job...

I am not condemning those in the hobby, lots of smart people, merely pointing out, that the tendancy is to not read the instructions, nor the fine print, as easily illustrated with the Mag Drive pumps > 9.5 (the instructuctions say 1.5" pipe, and folks use 3/4".) Or reeflo's instruction that specifically states to use thread sealant, not tape, and other points involving pipe sizing. "I don't have to read, Cuzza said..." or "Unc said it so it can't be true..." Invariably, in write up such as this, the risks are minimized because the intent is to tell folks what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.

LA batteries are the weak link in a backup schema and, by their nature, are not safe.There are many books and articles about the safe use of batteries. I cannot stress enough the importance of studying up on this "weakest link" of a backup power system, from more informed sources, especially from the Solar power industry.

You should include warnings so that hobbyists understand that there are safety issues. Note the part about qualified professionals... sure you have no idea of my qualifications, nor I yours...

WARNING: CAREFULLY HEED ALL BATTERY MANUFACTURER WARNINGS. BATTERIES CAN ARC AND BURN OR EVEN EXPLODE. THE ACID INSIDE WILL BURN SKIN AND BLIND EYES. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE MANUFACTURER'S WARNINGS, PLEASE SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM QUALIFIED PROFESSIONALS. THIS ARTICLE DOES NOT ATTEMPT TO TEACH YOU BATTERY CHARGING AND TESTING SAFETY. READ MANUFACTURER'S RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BATTERY CHARGERS, HYDROMETERS, INVERTERS AND BATTERIES.

Perhaps the greatest lacking in your post, is the need for circuit protection.

All battery banks and circuits should have the proper fuses, breakers and disconnects installed to protect from shorting out wires or the battery itself shorting out. Wires can melt and cause a fire when too much current flows through, (I did not see anything concerning wire sizing) and all batteries can explode. Sure it is just a 12VDC battery, no problem, right? However, 12000 (twelve thousand) amps is a pretty big deal actually. Circuit protection devices are large and rather costly. And no, the controllers do not have the proper protection devices. They are required in addition to a controller, and auto transfer switch. I have yet to see this information here, or on any other hobby forum, unless I was the one that brought it up...

The anecdote that you have never had a problem pales next to the volumes of information discussing the very real risks and dangers involved in using these methods, technologies, and materials. It simply means you did it, and says nothing of the safety or advisability of anyone else doing it.

The bottom line is irregardless of your qualifications or mine, anyone seeking advice/information concerning the use of these methods and materials, should consult a local qualified professional (one whose credentials are verifiable.) That may or may not be either an electrician, or electrical engineer. I know plenty of both that will get you into trouble. Or simply go out and get a generator, which is what really should be done, unless you plan on putting up a solar power station, and you will still need the generator... and run your referigerator as well, which to me is just as important, if not more important, than your fish tank...

<--problem solved...

 

[CuzzA]

Electronic guys, I need your help!

Uncle, I encourage you to review each products specs.

For example, the Wagan inverter has an internal fuse and auto shut down short circuit protection.

My design as illustrated is perfectly safe. I researched all aspects of the design and spoke to intelligent techs from each company and they all agreed it's a perfect setup. I didn't just create that thread off the cuff. Hell, I even went so far as to illustrate that one should be using a GFCI outlet, grounding probe and to setup the battery outdoors.

I agree with you that many people do not do their research; however, I would think by now from our previous meetings on threads that you know I do mine. While I may mix up some terminology here and there, my points are still clear and accurate as I do not give advice unless I'm certain my answers are correct.

Instead of getting too technical on my thread and like you said, people won't research it themselves, I didn't go into detail about the technical specs of each product. I already did the research for them and all they need to do is buy the exact same products and they'll have a fantastic reliable battery backup.

Finally, I'll add that it would be much more constructive if you simply added your knowledge on the subject after insuring you've reviewed the product specs, rather than simply making a blanket condemnation of my design.

My design and the process behind it is no different than how millions of boat and yachts are wired to switch from battery/generator power to shore power. The only differences is on a boat most accessories are 12v dc and would first be wired into a busbar then to the battery. And, as I mentioned, the inverter already has that protection integrated into the design.

I think you should really consider adding my design to your tank. I believe you'll be happy to find how well built each product is, especially the transfer switch.

 

[uncleof6]

Uncle, I encourage you to review each products specs.

For example, the Wagan inverter has an internal fuse and auto shut down short circuit protection.

That does not protect the wiring between the invertor and the battery. Nor will it protect the battery from a short in the wiring between the battery and the invertor. That only protects down line from the invertor, and the invertor itself&madash;maybe. Just like the utility supply, the circuit protection comes before the distribution, at the point of entry, which is generally outside the structure, and is called a main service panel. With all safe Marine, and Motorhome battery systems, the DC circuit protection etc. is right off the battery, not in the invertor. (Think fusible links in an automotive application.)

DC circuit breaker, next to an AC circuit breaker:

The results of the lack of circuit protection:

Folks go to school to learn this stuff, they don't learn it from product specs and talking to folks on the phone.

 

[TimmyD16]

Another argumentative thread... wonderful....

Like Fishgate said, you would want to run all systems directly off of the battery, and I would think a controller (and a lot of the things you want to power) could be run directly from the DC battery which would be much better because you'd loose a lot of efficiency from the DC-AC-DC conversion... Anything that has a "wall-wart" is probably being run off some level of DC and can be run straight from the battery...

Keeping that in mind, like Uncle said, there are right ways and wrong ways to do this... unfortunately wrong ways are usually far less expensive and far more dangerous, if you do this, PLEASE buy a battery that is specifically designed for solar power systems... While using something like a car battery for one night might be fine, DO NOT use an auto battery for permanent installation, because those explosions and fires WILL happen, not might....

Now can we just be productive for once and not just have a *chicken* fight?

 

[CuzzA]

I'm not discrediting that shorts are bad when it comes to batteries. If one doesn't know that they should be wrenching down the terminals to the lugs they shouldn't be messing with batteries in the first place.

I can't speak to motor homes, but most boats (those that don't have appliances) do not have a DC circuit breaker. This is likely due to the fact that motor homes and large boats are using generators where a breaker would be necessary given the large amount of power they can generate.

For the average boat, it's shore power to charger or shore power to transfer switch to charger to battery(s) to manual battery switch to busbar to DC equipment and sometimes an inverter for ac equipment. Millions of boats are produced this way every year and work perfectly fine.

If you want the added protection of a DC circuit breaker, go for it. But I don't believe it's necessary.

Again, I have to admit, my design isn't all that ingenious or original, it's nothing more than what millions of boat manufacturers have already done in terms of using both ac and dc power with batteries.

 

[CuzzA]

Electronic guys, I need your help!

Another argumentative thread... wonderful....

Like Fishgate said, you would want to run all systems directly off of the battery, and I would think a controller (and a lot of the things you want to power) could be run directly from the DC battery which would be much better because you'd loose a lot of efficiency from the DC-AC-DC conversion... Anything that has a "wall-wart" is probably being run off some level of DC and can be run straight from the battery...

Keeping that in mind, like Uncle said, there are right ways and wrong ways to do this... unfortunately wrong ways are usually far less expensive and far more dangerous, if you do this, PLEASE buy a battery that is specifically designed for solar power systems... While using something like a car battery for one night might be fine, DO NOT use an auto battery for permanent installation, because those explosions and fires WILL happen, not might....

Now can we just be productive for once and not just have a *chicken* fight?

Timmy,

No arguing. Arguing would be interpreted as anger. Trust me I smile when I type. It's just an anonymous fish forum. Can't let anything bother you around here.

I don't disagree that dc to dc will be the most efficient. However, now you're limited to ONLY dc equipment. What if you need to run that heater in the middle of a blizzard? The Wagan inverter has a 90% efficiency. That's good enough for me. I tested my system and I can run power heads for a full day. If I don't have power back on within a day, I'm breaking out the generator anyways.... And visiting my neighbors to apologize for the noise.

I'll add the problem with a car battery is once you completely drain it you damage the battery.

Deep cycle marine battery, solar battery... Both will work and I illustrated the use of a deep cycle marine battery.

 

[CuzzA]

Uncleof6,

I updated the original thread with a more detailed explanation of the system and included your suggestions of a fuse or DC Circuit Breaker installed in the wiring.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Its not an ups. Its a sinewave inverter on a deep cycle battery.

That is a UPS.. Albeit cobbled together. I did not look at your link but would guess you are using a cheap relay to do the switching. You need one ( a high speed contact or) with a much quicker cycle time.

 

[sabo]

Yeah, i ended up buying a very expensive high speed automatic transfer switch.

 

[BeanAnimal]

To effectively have your system (any system) on reliable backup with no hickups during an outage, it needs to run on the battery portion all the time. Then if power goes out, the battery is still there albeit without a charging source. This is how most data center backup systems work. They are always running on battery being continuously charged.

.
No this is not how most data center UPS systems work. Batteries, regardless of the switching technology are only under load during an outage. A double conversion or True online UPS uses the DC rectifier to charge the batteries AND power the inverter. The batteries ARE not under load until the ac fails. There is no physical switover because there is no relay, but there is a solid state switch that controls the DC bus power source.

As for the safety of DIY UPS systems.... High current DC battery arrays are dangerous. Likewise you better have dam good fusing if you are going to mess with series parallel arrays, these are not flashlight batteries. My advice (as somebody with professional and hobby experience with high voltage/current DC and large UPS system).... You are asking for trouble if you are doing anything more than a few Ah of AGM cells or anything more than 24v bus. Buy plenty of fire insurance.