Elegance Coral theory

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9979516#post9979516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
If that were true, then it would be counter to your theory:
From your paper: "With what I have seen in my own tank I have had to rethink my stand on this issue. These corals are having a very hard time adapting to low Kelvin temp lights. Even 10,000 K with actinic supplemental lighting seems to be to bright. I believe that the shrunken tentacles and overly inflated oral disk is a symptom of light exposure. A sun burn for corals."

IME with Goniopora, it is too much PAR that causes them to bleach (and NOT a lack of Iron/Manganese either). A small change in lighting will produce a visible change in the coral coloration and zooxanthellae density, but it takes place over a period of months, not days or hours. A large increase in lighting, either when harvesting them or placing them under stronger lighting within a tank, can cause them to quickly release their zooxanthellae (bleach) and also internally damage the tissue very quick. The shrunken polyps and tentacles that result are from the loss of zooxanthellae, but the die off of the individual polyps are from internal damage caused by acute oxidative stress (sun burn).

Have you been able to closely study the decline of "infected" Elegances in order to establish specific stages and patterns of behavior?

I think we are getting a little mixed up because I am mixing symtoms. I will try to be a little more clear. I study animals, I am no writer.
I believe the problem that started all this is the fact that the corals come from deeper water. They seem to live very close to thier maximum depth. If we reduce the light below that which the coral recieved in the wild it bleaches. You are correct that corals will bleach due to being exposed to bright light. They can also bleach due to a lack of light. We have seen the hobby do this intentionally with H. Crispa. (I know this is not a coral) Importers would house them with no light so that they would bleach and become a beautiful white color. The good thing (if there is one) about one of these corals bleaching due to low light is that the danger of Oxygen poisoning is gone. Bleaching is one of the symtoms these corals are dealing with. Another is when the oral disk overinflates and the tentacles shrink. This seems to be due to stronger lighting. The corals comming into the hobby now seem to have a much narrower field of exceptable lighting than the corals from shallow waters. Shallow water corals can go in either direction, higher or lower light, with a wider range being exceptable. The deep water corals have no room for thier light to be reduced and can not handle the strong uv rays the shallow water corals have adapted to. This gives them a much smaller window they can servive in. With that said, the good news is that both symtoms are reversable. Most people have a fear of placing thier Elegance corals on the rocks, and understandably so. The flesh around the top edge of the coral is very easily damaged. If your Elegance is in the sand and it begins to bleach it will die if nothing is done. You could increase the lighting in the tank, but this is normally not practical. The only other alternative is to move the coral up on the rocks where it can recieve more light. You will be taking a risk doing this but if its not done there is no way the coral will servive. I keep all my Elegance corals on the rocks and allways have. It is much easier to adjust the light the coral recieves when it is on the rocks. At first sight of the disk swelling up and the tentacles shrinking the coral must be moved to a slightly dimmer area of the tank. These adjustments in light levels should be done in small steps.

Have you been able to closely study the decline of "infected" Elegances in order to establish specific stages and patterns of behavior?

Yes. Well kinda. My corals are improving. Even after these corals have been moved into a more suitable environment they continue to struggle. The stress they have been under is great. The fight will be far from over. They will shrink up much smaller than normal. They may produce mucus or slime that can choke the coral off from the surrounding water. This slime is most abundant in the mornings. It will need to be removed without stressing the coral. I simply wave my hand over the coral and flush the slime away with the current. I also try to remove this slime from the tank if I can. I have looked at it under 600x magnifacation and can see no signs of life. They will only do this for a week, maybe two. you will need to run a good machanical filter durring this time to keep detritus from adding to this problem. After this the polup will very slowly begin to open more. It will take many months for the coral to get back to a normal appearance, but once they have made it through the slime stage they seem to be home free. That is if you can keep the other inhabitants off of them. This is not a process for the community tank.
Did that make a little more since?

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9979639#post9979639 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Thanks, its still a work progress, the fun never ends.

I dont quite understand the bleaching under lower lighting. IME lower lighting generally causes a darker richer/brownish color to develop. Higher light intensities cause either a washing of color or in severe cases bleaching.

The dark richer/brownish color is caused by the population of algae in the animals tissues. If the light is insufficient for photosynthesis the animal will bleach. I'm not sure if this is because the algae is dieing off inside the coral, but that is my guess. Corals bleach under high light because of Oxygen poisoning. The algae produce more oxygen then the coral can handle causing it to dispel its algae in self defence. It is very common for a coral to expel small portions of its algae when first placed in a bright aquarium. You can see the brown slimy looking stuff comming out of the corals mouth when they do this.

 

[graveyardworm]

Here is how understand zooxanthallae in coral tissues. There are different colored zooxanthallae. The different colors are have different roles under different light intensities. Under low light the browns move closer to the surface to collect as much available light as possible. True under extremely low light or no light conditions the animal will either expell its zoos, or the zoos die, either way the coral becomes bleached, but under low light ( barely sufficient ) the browns move closer to the surface. As light intensities increase the brown zoos move farther into the tissue revealing other tissue colors which help to reflect light so the browns dont overwork and pollute their environment.

I havent read through Eric Bornemans entire Elegance project to understand what he went through and observed, but I think there's more to it than just light otherwise I feel that Eric would've quickly picked up on this and it would've been shown in his report.

Here's something I read this is how I interpreted it. Originally the Elegance coming in were a hardy coral collected in relatively shallow water. Then something happened perhaps it was deeper collection that was part of the problem, but it appears that the problem was a pathogen of some sort which made its way into warehouse stock tanks infecting new corals as they came in. As the issua with elegance became more real and people became more aware demand for the coral slowed and there was far less collection, and without the corals in the stock tanks the pathogen worked its way out of the systems it was in. So now we're starting to see more healthy unaffected elegance in the hobby.

This may have been in Erics report, I can try to dig it up.

 

[redFishblue]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9978507#post9978507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
I believe it was the sudden change in light that caused this effect. I am more convinced that the root of this problem is lighting now then I was when I wrote my theory. I got a new Elegance on Friday. It was somewhat withdrawn when I got it. I decided to do a little experiment last night. I placed this new coral about 10" under a 250W 10K light and turned off all the others. In less than 2 minutes it began to puff up and withdraw its tentacles. I immediately turned the light off. The coral began to deflate as soon as the light went out. I did this several times to make sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. Each time I had the same reaction. I will be replacing the 10K with a 14k and doing more tests today.

My elegance showed the same reaction when I was switching between a 10k and a 14k 250w de bulb to check which color I liked better. It would react almost instantly when the 10k was on...the tentacles would retract and it would puff up. But after a while, it would return to normal and actually look more "full" than before under the 14 which it normally is under. It might have been just momentarily shocked at the par increase but not sure if it would cause long term problems. My other corals might have not liked the increase in the light but it so much more easier to see it in the elegance because it has so much tissue to expand or rectract.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9980466#post9980466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Here is how understand zooxanthallae in coral tissues. There are different colored zooxanthallae. The different colors are have different roles under different light intensities. Under low light the browns move closer to the surface to collect as much available light as possible. True under extremely low light or no light conditions the animal will either expell its zoos, or the zoos die, either way the coral becomes bleached, but under low light ( barely sufficient ) the browns move closer to the surface. As light intensities increase the brown zoos move farther into the tissue revealing other tissue colors which help to reflect light so the browns dont overwork and pollute their environment.

I havent read through Eric Bornemans entire Elegance project to understand what he went through and observed, but I think there's more to it than just light otherwise I feel that Eric would've quickly picked up on this and it would've been shown in his report.

Here's something I read this is how I interpreted it. Originally the Elegance coming in were a hardy coral collected in relatively shallow water. Then something happened perhaps it was deeper collection that was part of the problem, but it appears that the problem was a pathogen of some sort which made its way into warehouse stock tanks infecting new corals as they came in. As the issua with elegance became more real and people became more aware demand for the coral slowed and there was far less collection, and without the corals in the stock tanks the pathogen worked its way out of the systems it was in. So now we're starting to see more healthy unaffected elegance in the hobby.

This may have been in Erics report, I can try to dig it up.

From what I have read on Mr. Bornemans project he consentrated the bulk of his research on dead or dieing coral tissue. This is how he found these Protazoans living within the coral tissues. Julian Sprung also found these protazoans. What they can not say is if these are opertunistic parasites or the cause of the problems. All they can say is that they found them and that there is no known cure. I haven't read anwhere that anyone has done research to find out how to care for them. What it takes to keep them alive and healthy in our aquariums. This is why I began my research. Once these protazoans were found it seems all the research stoped. Who's to say what Mr. Borneman would have found if he would have consentrated his research into keeping them alive. I have corals that are recovering. I have seen the results of different lights on these corals. I can safely say that lighting plays a major role in their survival.
I just bought a sick Elegance on Friday. In my area they don't seem to be getting any better. They are now collecting a limited number of Elegance corals from Australia where they don't need to dive to great depth to find them. These corals from what I have read don't seem to have this problem. This may be why we are seeing some healthy Elegance corals in the trade now. As long as we are collecting these corals from deep waters I believe we will continue to have this problem.
I'm just curious, did you read my theory at the begining of this thread? I covered some of the isseus, you brought up here, in that paper. Thanks for your input and good luck with that new Elegance.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9980693#post9980693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redFishblue
My elegance showed the same reaction when I was switching between a 10k and a 14k 250w de bulb to check which color I liked better. It would react almost instantly when the 10k was on...the tentacles would retract and it would puff up. But after a while, it would return to normal and actually look more "full" than before under the 14 which it normally is under. It might have been just momentarily shocked at the par increase but not sure if it would cause long term problems. My other corals might have not liked the increase in the light but it so much more easier to see it in the elegance because it has so much tissue to expand or rectract.

Now thats an interesting point that I havn't thought of. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I will start some more testing on this tomorrow. I have some questions going through my mind and this may answer some of them. I think this may be very helpfull to what I'm doing. Thanks again.

 

[graveyardworm]

I did read your theory I may need to read it again. I tried to find some sort of conclusion to Erics Elegance project here and on another site, but couldnt find any posting of end results. I'm sure I read something a little while back just cant seem to find it now.

What I did find was some info like you said that he had very few healthy specimens to examine and then he was having trouble finding a lab to do the histology. So there were many complications.

 

[John Kelly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9979979#post9979979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
I believe the problem that started all this is the fact that the corals come from deeper water. They seem to live very close to thier maximum depth. If we reduce the light below that which the coral recieved in the wild it bleaches.

The "maximum depth" theory is a good one, but then the corals would be coming out of the water saturated with zooxanthellae and very brown. As soon as they were placed in any decently lit tank, they would lose some zoox. If they were placed in a heavily lit tank, they could easily burn. So as you are saying, you can't place them in any lower light than they already come from because they will bleach and you can't place them in any higher lighting than they come from because they will be burned. I have seen Goniopora "puff up" many times before where the tentacles/polyps are pulled in, but the body is filled and huge. It usually occurs more frequently when they are new to the tank and under stronger lighting than they were previously. Bleached ones will often "puff up" more frequently too, so I believe there is a correlation between puffiness, zooxanthellae regulation, and lighting. Over a period of months, and once the coral has had time to adjust the zooxanthellae and fluorescent proteins to the lighting, the puff up behavior decreases and stops. The loss of zooxanthellae by itself will cause the tentacle extension to be much less than normal, even if the coral is receiving plenty of target fed food. I would guess that the less zooxanthellae an Elegance has the more it would puff up or remain puffy and the more it's tentacles would remain retracted. It takes months to for a bleached Goniopora to recover, and like you said, it takes months for Elegance to recover, so it sounds like there is a possible close relationship of the symptoms between the two types of corals.

From what you are describing, it sounds like there are Shallow Water Elegance and Deep Water Elegance that come into the hobby. The purchaser wouldn't necessarily know the difference though. If a person purchased an Elegance from deeper water, it would be more brown from the increased zooxanthellae density; unless it had already lost some of it and/or was "sick" (burned). The tentacle extension would already be affected on a "sick" Elegance, due to some lost zooxanthellae, so that would be the first clue to look for when judging the overall health.

If a person was wanting to purchase an Elegance, it sounds like they would want to start off with a specimen that was saturated with zooxanthellae and extending it's tentacles nicely, place them under medium lighting, target feed them heavily (in case they are under too low of light), watch for them to "puff up" (in case they are under too high of light), and be ready to move them according to their behavior if need be.

 

[John Kelly]

Here is a photo of the 16yr old Elegance that I previously posted a photo of, except for this was taken 8 months later and the lighting had been moved higher off of the tank. This is what I would expect a Deep Water Elegance to look like when it is harvested; an increase in zooxanthellae density, thicker tentacles, less fluorescent proteins (= less UVR protection):

Edit: Same coral 8 months earlier under more intense lighting. The bulbs and wattage are the same, but the lighting is moved closer in this pic. Notice, decreased zooxanthellae density, thinner tentacles, more fluorescent proteins (= more UVR protection):

 

[tranboy]

In my experience with keeping elegance corals. I find that feeding them small pieces of choped up shrimp will also keep them health. Mine where under power compact lighting so the lighting wasn't that intense.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9980956#post9980956 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
I did read your theory I may need to read it again. I tried to find some sort of conclusion to Erics Elegance project here and on another site, but couldnt find any posting of end results. I'm sure I read something a little while back just cant seem to find it now.

What I did find was some info like you said that he had very few healthy specimens to examine and then he was having trouble finding a lab to do the histology. So there were many complications.

The last thing I read on this was that he was trying to get experts to examen these protazoans and give him thier thoughts. I have found no outcome to this. It seems he is busy working on other issues, including other corals that are showing similar symtoms to Elegance corals. He said that he was having difficulty comming up with the time for this project. I haven't checked into this in several weeks so I'm not sure if anything has changed or not.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9981091#post9981091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
The "maximum depth" theory is a good one, but then the corals would be coming out of the water saturated with zooxanthellae and very brown. As soon as they were placed in any decently lit tank, they would lose some zoox. If they were placed in a heavily lit tank, they could easily burn. So as you are saying, you can't place them in any lower light than they already come from because they will bleach and you can't place them in any higher lighting than they come from because they will be burned. I have seen Goniopora "puff up" many times before where the tentacles/polyps are pulled in, but the body is filled and huge. It usually occurs more frequently when they are new to the tank and under stronger lighting than they were previously. Bleached ones will often "puff up" more frequently too, so I believe there is a correlation between puffiness, zooxanthellae regulation, and lighting. Over a period of months, and once the coral has had time to adjust the zooxanthellae and fluorescent proteins to the lighting, the puff up behavior decreases and stops. The loss of zooxanthellae by itself will cause the tentacle extension to be much less than normal, even if the coral is receiving plenty of target fed food. I would guess that the less zooxanthellae an Elegance has the more it would puff up or remain puffy and the more it's tentacles would remain retracted. It takes months to for a bleached Goniopora to recover, and like you said, it takes months for Elegance to recover, so it sounds like there is a possible close relationship of the symptoms between the two types of corals.

From what you are describing, it sounds like there are Shallow Water Elegance and Deep Water Elegance that come into the hobby. The purchaser wouldn't necessarily know the difference though. If a person purchased an Elegance from deeper water, it would be more brown from the increased zooxanthellae density; unless it had already lost some of it and/or was "sick" (burned). The tentacle extension would already be affected on a "sick" Elegance, due to some lost zooxanthellae, so that would be the first clue to look for when judging the overall health.

If a person was wanting to purchase an Elegance, it sounds like they would want to start off with a specimen that was saturated with zooxanthellae and extending it's tentacles nicely, place them under medium lighting, target feed them heavily (in case they are under too low of light), watch for them to "puff up" (in case they are under too high of light), and be ready to move them according to their behavior if need be.

I am so glad you understand what I was trying to say and were able to put it into much better words than I. While I hate to hear that you have had similar problems with your Goniopora, it is nice to know that someone else has witnessed these symtoms. This only strengthens my belief that I am on the right path to saving as many of these corals as I can. I already believe that people reading this will be much better equipped to care for thier Elegance corals than they were before we wrote this.
I just wanted to add one thing to what you said above. I believe you are correct in assuming that these corals are a dark brown color when first collected. The problem, at least in my area, is that by the time these corals make it to our LFS they have lost a great deal of thier algae. I believe that this compounds the problem. If we could get Elegance corals that still had a large population of algae it would be much easier to acclimate them to our systems.
Thanks for your help with this. I am truly grateful.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9980466#post9980466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Here is how understand zooxanthallae in coral tissues. There are different colored zooxanthallae. The different colors are have different roles under different light intensities. Under low light the browns move closer to the surface to collect as much available light as possible. True under extremely low light or no light conditions the animal will either expell its zoos, or the zoos die, either way the coral becomes bleached, but under low light ( barely sufficient ) the browns move closer to the surface. As light intensities increase the brown zoos move farther into the tissue revealing other tissue colors which help to reflect light so the browns dont overwork and pollute their environment.

What I am writing here in this post is not ment to be argumentative at all. I am truly trying to educate myself. If there is one constant with all the studying and research I have done it would be that I don't know it all.
With that said, I don't completely agree with your understanding of zooxanthallae (algae, for the rest of this)and the way they function. I only know of one color of algae. That is shades of brown. There are different species of these algae that are better suited to different environments, but to the best of my knowledge they are all brown. I have never read, or saw for my self, where these algae move around inside the coral. The only time I know of them moving is when the coral ejects them. I believe that the coral has the ability to regulate the numbers and to some extent the species of algae in its tissue. However I don't know of them changing their placement inside the coral in an attempt to adjust to different light levels. The secondary pigments are on the outer layers of the coral. They are used to filter the light that penitrates deeper into the animal. The reason that they apear more abundantly in bright light situations is that the coral has the ability to produce these pigments. I don't believe that these pigments are hidden underneath the algae and show up as the algae retreats deeper into the coral.
If you can point me to any articals on this that describes this the way you did I would greatly appreciate it. Honestly not trying to start an argument. I just want to make sure that my facts are correct.

 

[graveyardworm]

Here's an article which may be of some use.

Coral Photoacclimation
by Trevor-Jones, Andrew

and found this but havent read it yet

The Elegance Coral Project
by Borneman, Eric

and this seemed interesting

Asexual Reproduction of Catalaphyllia jardinei (Elegance coral)
by Durso, Richard

 

[elegance coral]

Thanks for the articales. The second and third one I have allready read. The first one was one that I hadn't read. Thanks again.

 

[Big E]

I kept a shallow water elegance under 250w 5500K MH and it out grew a standard 55gl aquarium.

When I had my elegance back around '90 it was kept under 175w
5500k lights & two 40w antinics. This is when they were easy to keep. I never fed the coral & doubled in size in a years time.

I would say the water was more nutrient rich than how we keep reefs now as most skimmers were junk back then.

 

[Klownfish]

This is very intresting.

I am glad someone is trying to figure out WHY these corals are not doing well in many tanks, and HOW we can have better luck with them.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10035543#post10035543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klownfish
This is very intresting.

I am glad someone is trying to figure out WHY these corals are not doing well in many tanks, and HOW we can have better luck with them.

Thanks for kind words. I have recieved some negitive attention because of what I am doing. Its nice to hear some encouraging words every now and then.

 

[Klownfish]

I understand you haven't fully finished your project. That's OK, IMO. Any advice or assistance is a very welcome idea.

There may be other reefers who have had simmular experience to what you're talking about. They may be able to help you, or you help them....

I was thinking perhaps a virus was infecting the corals. Most other meds have been tried, and failed. Anti-virals are a newer set of meds, and not easily purchased at your local Wal-Mart. A virus isn't easily identified, either. Special microscopes are necessary. I haven't done ANY research, just a lame thought of mine...

I will be reading this thread, and I do hope some new *light* will be shed on this subject.




(Sorry- Bad pun intended!)

 

[John Kelly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9984634#post9984634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
While I hate to hear that you have had similar problems with your Goniopora, it is nice to know that someone else has witnessed these symtoms.

There has been a bleaching problem or "syndrome" associated with captive Goniopora for years; especially the common green ones. The reason it was such a mystery is because there can be several primary causes for the bleaching. Each cause can initiate its own individual pathway of decline, both quickly and slowly, but the end result has the same effect on the coral (loss of zooxanthellae, shrunken polyps/tentacles, receding, and tissue damage), which makes it difficult to figure out what the primary cause is. With most problems there is an initial cause, then depending on the degree that the coral is affected other "causes" join in to create a compound problem; which is probably what is happening with Elegance.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9984634#post9984634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
I believe you are correct in assuming that these corals are a dark brown color when first collected. The problem, at least in my area, is that by the time these corals make it to our LFS they have lost a great deal of thier algae. I believe that this compounds the problem. If we could get Elegance corals that still had a large population of algae it would be much easier to acclimate them to our systems.

Exactly. The same thing happens with Goniopora. They often come into local fish stores bleached and even have tissue damage on top from being "burned". Somewhere along the path into the hobby they are exposed to higher lighting; perhaps sunlight in shallow holding tanks confused: ). I know from experience that it doesn't take long to burn them. Since Elegance has such large individual polyps, if even one polyp was damaged it could cause an internal mess. That is why I said earlier "The situation could be that once an Elegance is affected or damaged by light it develops some type of infection which eventually becomes contagious to healthy Elegance corals". Along the same lines of thinking, a damaged polyp may also affect other healthy polyps within the same colony, kind of like an internal brown jelly infection. If that were true, then another symptom to look for would be an uneven die off of the polyps within the same colony. If the initial cause of the problem was from the coral getting burned, then the large individual polyps might die off at close but separate times. In other words, the whole coral wouldn't necessarily die off equally, but in sections beginning with the most damaged polyp(s) and progress toward the most healthy polyps. In the photos that I've seen of "sick" Elegance, this is kind of how they die. In Goniopora that have been burned, there may only be a few polyps die off (since they are much smaller and the colonies are usually hemispherical), but the whole colony usually loses much or all of it's zooxanthellae and the polyp/tentacle extension is affected all over.

Burnt Goniopora. This coral used to be green and brown with long polyps and was burned by intense lighting.

Dying Elegance coral. It is now mostly bleached. The tentacles down around the lower perimeter contain a little more zooxanthellae than the tentacles on top. This is usually associated with too intense of lighting.

Dying Goniopora coral. The top slowly bleached from too intense of lighting. Notice the lower polyps still contain zooxanthellae and the top bleached polyps/tentacles don't extend as far.