Elegance Coral theory

[Serioussnaps]

I dont really see how an elegance can eat phyto. Would you consider an elegance a filter feeder? I wouldnt. I think it is quite coincidental and anectdotal, but to each his own.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9876376#post9876376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
I dont really see how an elegance can eat phyto. Would you consider an elegance a filter feeder? I wouldnt. I think it is quite coincidental and anectdotal, but to each his own.

No I wouldn't. I guess it is possible that the coral could absorb a limited amount of nutrients from the water due to the feedings, but they don't feed on plankton directly. This is why I suggested he try feeding larger food items over 8 weeks time.

In my opinion, one problem hobiests have with Elegance Corals is that their coral looks good to them so they keep doing what they have been doing. This is normally a great philosophy, but may not be the best with Elegances. Most hobiests don't get to see what a healthy and happy Elegance looks like after several years in captivity. They see the Elegances in their LFS. They are beautiful but have been stressed from shipment half way across the planet. They are very small in comparison to what they looked like in the wild and what they can look like in captivity. In the right conditions these things get huge, and in a relatively brief period of time.
Recently on a different web sight a man was showing off his large elegance. He said it loved the high flow of his SPS tank. In the pic all you could see is tentacles. It was huge, but one big mass of tentacles. You couldn't see the oral disk at all. I'm sure he just didn't know what his coral would look like in a lower flow enviroment. If he moved that coral it probably would double its expansion in the first week or two.

 

[The_Taz_Devil]

Loved the original thread Darrell and eventually found this one as well and thank-you for putting your experiences into words, I know that must have been quite hard and time consumning. I haven't had my elegance long but the polyps are all extending and it is feeding quite well, I dont have to target feed it because I do see some success from my regular feeding regime and the elegance definetely closes up around this time so I can only assume its feeding on something. I havent tried a target feed as yet (next on my list) but will try with some small brine shrimp (if that seems reasonable to you). Its in a large tank, on the sand (buried in due to conical shape of the base) and extends very well under my 3 x 250W 14k MH which are supplemented for 2-3 hours (split dusk/dawn) with 2 x 58W blue actinics. No sign of polyps shrinking but what is the over sized oral disc ? I posted a pic of mine in your first post so I guess if you noticed any issues you would have said at the time. Thanks again, great write up.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9910487#post9910487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The_Taz_Devil
Loved the original thread Darrell and eventually found this one as well and thank-you for putting your experiences into words, I know that must have been quite hard and time consumning. I haven't had my elegance long but the polyps are all extending and it is feeding quite well, I dont have to target feed it because I do see some success from my regular feeding regime and the elegance definetely closes up around this time so I can only assume its feeding on something. I havent tried a target feed as yet (next on my list) but will try with some small brine shrimp (if that seems reasonable to you). Its in a large tank, on the sand (buried in due to conical shape of the base) and extends very well under my 3 x 250W 14k MH which are supplemented for 2-3 hours (split dusk/dawn) with 2 x 58W blue actinics. No sign of polyps shrinking but what is the over sized oral disc ? I posted a pic of mine in your first post so I guess if you noticed any issues you would have said at the time. Thanks again, great write up.

Thanks for the kind words.
You will know the over sized oral disk if you see it, but I don't think you will. The polup will swell with water and contract its tentacles. There is a pic of one here on RC in another thread. I will try to find it and let you know where it is so you can check it out.
I wouldn't use brine shrimp. Its not that they are bad its just that they dont have much of a nutritional value. At least the adults. The babys with the yoke sack are better. Did you read my sugestions on feeding earlier in the thread? If so try that and see if it make a difference in the growth of your elegance. It does sound like your elegance is managing to grab some particals from the water as you feed your tank, but I wonder how much food its getting. These corals can be pigs. If you do deside to try feeding like this, let me know how it goes, and thanks again.

 

[elegance coral]

I found the pic. It is in the Reef Discussion forum and posted on 3-12-07. The title is Elegance Coral Question.

 

[The_Taz_Devil]

Thanks Darrell, Ive seen the pics now and can safely say mine is nowhere near that sort of deterioration. I will go with your suggestions on target feeding, I do so for my sun coral, brains and goni's so why not for such an aptly named "elegance" coral. I did read you suggested shrimp or fish any ensure their feeding tentacles are out and perhaps place on or near the mouth area so I will try that. I do have some fast swimming tangs who compete like mad for food but I have a cunning little feeding cup which will suit the elegance very well so I can target feed with a mix if required and leave it to feast. Will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.

 

[John Kelly]

The observation of the effects of different light frequencies on Elegance could provide an answer for some of the deaths, but it doesn't explain how Eric Borneman's 7 year old healthy Elegance became infected within several days of being exposed to sick ones.

.....unless he prematurely treated his coral and the treatment killed it .
or
The situation could be that once an Elegance is affected or damaged by light it develops some type of infection which eventually becomes contagious to healthy Elegance corals .

 

[achilestang]

thank 4 info

thank 4 info

very helpful

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9919707#post9919707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
The observation of the effects of different light frequencies on Elegance could provide an answer for some of the deaths, but it doesn't explain how Eric Borneman's 7 year old healthy Elegance became infected within several days of being exposed to sick ones.

.....unless he prematurely treated his coral and the treatment killed it .
or
The situation could be that once an Elegance is affected or damaged by light it develops some type of infection which eventually becomes contagious to healthy Elegance corals .

I have seen your Goniopora collection. Any input you may have here would be treated with a great deal of respect, at least by me.
I was unaware of Eric's 7 year old elegance. I wonder what the symptoms were for this coral? A 7 year old elegance is usually one tough coral. You may have a point. The population of these parasitic protozoans could have been at very high levels in his tank. Maybe he injured the coral while moving it into this tank adding to its vulnerability to these protozoans. One can only guess as to what really happened to it though. This is where my study is now. I am trying to buy healthy looking corals and placing them in with the ones I know to be ill. I only have one and it seems to be doing fine after several months. As soon as my LFS gets more in I will continue with this part of my study.

 

[John Kelly]

Here is the link about his healthy one becoming "sick". It is several posts down on the page:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=310425&perpage=25&pagenumber=15

bbl

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9921615#post9921615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
Here is the link about his healthy one becoming "sick". It is several posts down on the page:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=310425&perpage=25&pagenumber=15

bbl

Thanks for the read. I think its obvious that his treatment is what killed the coral. What caused it to become ill is a different story. Maybe if he would have removed the sick corals and did a large water change the coral could have survived. We will never know now though. I still have one coral, that is in a 29gl tank with 7 somewhat sick corals, that has shown no signs of the sickness. I also have some getting much better in this tank.

I wish my lfs would get more elegances in so that I could move forward with my study.

 

[John Kelly]

Darrell,

Do you know (or anyone else) whether or not the ill elegance corals usually bleach first before they finally stop extending? Mine did.

Here are some pics I took of mine back in 2004. Compared to a healthy Elegance, it already appears somewhat bleached in the first photo:

2-22-04

2-25-04

3-06-04

I have some more pics somewhere, but I can't find them at the moment. The time period between the first pic and the last is 12 days, and I can't remember exactly how long the coral lasted, but I think it was at least a month or two. The lighting was 220w vho 50/50 bulbs and the coral was sitting approx 22" from the bulbs.

You wrote in your theory that Elegance has a very hard time adapting to low Kelvin temp lights. Is this due to the color spectrum itself or the generally higher PAR that the low Kelvin bulbs have when compared to higher 15k or 20k bulbs?

For reference, here is a photo of a local Elegance that is 16 years old. The photo doesn't really show just how brown it is:

 

[elegance coral]

I'm sorry to read about your loss.
I have some that have bleached and some that haven't. In my case it seems that the ones further away from the lights are the ones that bleach. I believe that in your case and mine the coral was just not getting enough light which caused it to bleach. I have moved mine closer to the lights and so far so good. I talked to someone here on RC (through E-mail) that said they were on a boat when an Elegance was collected from depth. By the time the coral was on the boat it had the swollen oral disk and shrunken tentacles. They naturally assumed this was due to the difference in pressure that the coral had just gone through. The problem with this is that some corals don't show these signs in our LFS. The symtoms don't show up until we get them home and place them under our lights. I believe it was the sudden change in light that caused this effect. I am more convinced that the root of this problem is lighting now then I was when I wrote my theory. I got a new Elegance on Friday. It was somewhat withdrawn when I got it. I decided to do a little experiment last night. I placed this new coral about 10" under a 250W 10K light and turned off all the others. In less than 2 minutes it began to puff up and withdraw its tentacles. I immediately turned the light off. The coral began to deflate as soon as the light went out. I did this several times to make sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. Each time I had the same reaction. I will be replacing the 10K with a 14k and doing more tests today.
I believe the problem is in part the PAR the coral recieves. I used kelvin temp because it is easier for hobbyists to relate to and more closely mimics the spectrum of light they would recieve at greater depth. I don't believe that low wattage daylight lighting has the same effect on these corals as higher wattage actinics do. The secondary pigments in these corals filter the spectrum and PAR that thier algae recieves. If we start out with higher kelvin lighting we can more closely match the end result of ligh the algae recieves.

This is a pic of my very first Elegance. We didn't have digital cameras back then so it is a pic of a 35mm photo. This is why the quality is so bad. This coral and the 16 year old coral in your photo were probably collected in 5 to 10 feet of water. They still needed time to adjust to very bright lights but didn't have near the problems that the corals of today have. My coral lived about 10" from 250W 55K MH, 2 110w actinic vho's, and 2 40w actinics. It would take a very very long time to get one of these new corals to servive under these lights.
I hope I have answered your questions and the information is helpfull.

 

[graveyardworm]

Not sure if I can help any with this. My experience with elegance corals is very limited at the moment. I have been looking for awhile for a healthy one, and finally found waht I believe is a healthy specimen in a fellow aquarists tank so I bought it. Here's a pic of it in the tank I bought it from.

It was in a 180 under 10k DE MH for a couple months, I'm waiting on more info from the person I bought it from to see how long he's had it and under what conditions.

I have no pics of it in my tank yet, but its under 3 overdriven 6500k NO flourescent 4 foot tubes and one 4 foot VHO actinic. Its in my 100g seagrass tank about 14 inches down on the sand. Its slightly shaded under a ledge. I have no idea on the PAR of the lamps, but they appear to be about the same as T5's.

Flow hasnt really been discussed yet. At the moment mine is in random flow, probably low to med.

 

[graveyardworm]

Just grabbed a quick pic of it in my tank. I've had it for a couple days.

 

[elegance coral]

I think you may have gotten lucky. That looks like a very healthy coral and looks like it may have been in captivity for some time. I hope you get that info from the person you got it from, so you can try to mimic what the coral has adapted to. Just remember to feed it once or twice a week small pieces of shrimp or fish. ( not from your grocery store) and keep the calcium level up. Good luck and let us know how he does.

 

[graveyardworm]

It's probably going to get fed every night, I have a collection of suncorals, and several other LPS in the same tank.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9978800#post9978800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
It's probably going to get fed every night, I have a collection of suncorals, and several other LPS in the same tank.

WOW! I just checked out the thread on your system. I think your Elegance is going to be very happy! Nice job.

 

[John Kelly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9978507#post9978507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
I have some that have bleached and some that haven't. In my case it seems that the ones further away from the lights are the ones that bleach. I believe that in your case and mine the coral was just not getting enough light which caused it to bleach. I have moved mine closer to the lights and so far so good.

If that were true, then it would be counter to your theory:
From your paper: "With what I have seen in my own tank I have had to rethink my stand on this issue. These corals are having a very hard time adapting to low Kelvin temp lights. Even 10,000 K with actinic supplemental lighting seems to be to bright. I believe that the shrunken tentacles and overly inflated oral disk is a symptom of light exposure. A sun burn for corals."

IME with Goniopora, it is too much PAR that causes them to bleach (and NOT a lack of Iron/Manganese either). A small change in lighting will produce a visible change in the coral coloration and zooxanthellae density, but it takes place over a period of months, not days or hours. A large increase in lighting, either when harvesting them or placing them under stronger lighting within a tank, can cause them to quickly release their zooxanthellae (bleach) and also internally damage the tissue very quick. The shrunken polyps and tentacles that result are from the loss of zooxanthellae, but the die off of the individual polyps are from internal damage caused by acute oxidative stress (sun burn).

Have you been able to closely study the decline of "infected" Elegances in order to establish specific stages and patterns of behavior?

 

[graveyardworm]

WOW! I just checked out the thread on your system. I think your Elegance is going to be very happy! Nice job.

Thanks, its still a work progress, the fun never ends.

I dont quite understand the bleaching under lower lighting. IME lower lighting generally causes a darker richer/brownish color to develop. Higher light intensities cause either a washing of color or in severe cases bleaching.