Elegance Coral theory

[zarro]

elegance

elegance

Hi
Hers a pic of mine ive had now for two years , it under
two 400 wtt 14k Mh . ive got it at the top of the tank . The MH
are 18" from the top of the water ,its placed hafe way under
the tanks brase . I feed it very finely chopped up squid , octpus
i get at walmarts in the seafood depatment.

 

[redFishblue]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9984634#post9984634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
The problem, at least in my area, is that by the time these corals make it to our LFS they have lost a great deal of thier algae. I believe that this compounds the problem. If we could get Elegance corals that still had a large poulation of algae it would be much easier to acclimate them to our systems.

A lot of the elegances I've seen melt in the stores in my area (Seattle) were not bleached.
They looked fine except for the sections covered in mucus or the shrucken tentacles.
If it was only bleached elegances that were dying, it'd be easier to isolate a cause.

 

[John Kelly]

Darrell (elegance coral) is the only person I've seen that is researching living specimens and drawing up other potential hypothesis and actually testing them. Since he focuses on lighting as a potential cause of the "sickness", I posted some photos showing some effects of what lighting can do and described some of the similarities between the symptoms (loss of zoox, shrunken tentacles, damaged tissue).

Of the 4 or 5 sick ones that I have witnessed, they were all discolored like mine or like in the photo below (taken from RK Mag). They didn't start out that way, but I think the majority of the sick ones eventually end up looking similar. That doesn't mean it is primarily a bleaching problem though. They could still be getting "burned" and internally damaged without bleaching first.

Personally, I think one of the most important questions is, is it actually something that is transmitted from a "sick" Elegance to a healthy Elegance or is that a widespread belief that has very little foundation; like so many other beliefs circulating through the hobby?

 

[Klownfish]

I'm to assume your theroy on light is correct, how would someone correct the lighting if the Elegance coral starts to show signs of "light intoxication" or too much light?

If the polyps start to puff up, and the tentacles shrink, what next? Remove it from the light for 3 days? Jusk keep it under actinics for a few days?

How have you assisted your Elegance in recovery?

If the Elegance will bleach with too little light, get puffed polyps with too much light, what would you recogmend for an Elegance just starting to show "puffed polyp stress"?

What type of lighting do you suggest? At what PAR? How about color? 14k, 20K?? MH,T-5's, PC???



-And thanks!

 

[Klownfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10041648#post10041648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly

Personally, I think one of the most important questions is, is it actually something that is transmitted from a "sick" Elegance to a healthy Elegance or is that a widespread belief that has very little foundation; like so many other beliefs circulating through the hobby?

Tough question...
Many different treatments have been tried, from Lugol's, to anti-fungal dips, and antibotics. None yet to my knowledge have proven sucessful.

It could be a virus...
That would explain quite a lot actually, about transmission. And perhaps why it isn't seen in the ocean much. A virus is difficult to identify, and unlike bacteria, often difficult to treat with meds... Often only the symptoms are given treatment.

Just an idea...
If someone had a sick Elegance coral, they could try feeding it an anti-viral like Interferon. I don't think any anti-virals have been tried yet, that I'm aware of.

 

[boozeman]

http://www.fishpalace.org/C_jardinei.html

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10040226#post10040226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redFishblue
A lot of the elegances I've seen melt in the stores in my area (Seattle) were not bleached.
They looked fine except for the sections covered in mucus or the shrucken tentacles.
If it was only bleached elegances that were dying, it'd be easier to isolate a cause.

These corals can be damaged by bright light faster than they can bleach. The last one I killed died from exposure to a 175W 10K MH. It never looked bleached. It died from its injuries from being burnt. It was doing fine and looked great. I placed it under this light to test its reaction. It began to swell up in seconds. I removed it immediately but the damage had been done. It never opened up again and was dead in 2 days.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10041648#post10041648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
Darrell (elegance coral) is the only person I've seen that is researching living specimens and drawing up other potential hypothesis and actually testing them. Since he focuses on lighting as a potential cause of the "sickness", I posted some photos showing some effects of what lighting can do and described some of the similarities between the symptoms (loss of zoox, shrunken tentacles, damaged tissue).

Of the 4 or 5 sick ones that I have witnessed, they were all discolored like mine or like in the photo below (taken from RK Mag). They didn't start out that way, but I think the majority of the sick ones eventually end up looking similar. That doesn't mean it is primarily a bleaching problem though. They could still be getting "burned" and internally damaged without bleaching first.

Personally, I think one of the most important questions is, is it actually something that is transmitted from a "sick" Elegance to a healthy Elegance or is that a widespread belief that has very little foundation; like so many other beliefs circulating through the hobby?

Thanks again John Kelly.

In the past week I have bought and killed 2 more Elegance corals. That makes 3 during this study. They didn't die from a strange disease or killer protazoans. I killed them by placing them in light that was to bright for them. I really don't want to do that anymore. From now on if I buy an Elegance it will be to keep it alive and not to test a theory. I have been doing much more thinking about this problem. I have changed my viewpoint just a little. One thing that just keeps sticking in my mind is the lady that was on a boat while they were collecting Elegance corals. She said that by the time the corals made it to the boat they would be showing the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles. I know this to be a reaction to bright light. I also believe the professionals when they say that they found protazoans living in dead or dieing coral tissue. In any salt water environment there are many organisms that feed on weakened animals. If these corals are being damaged by sunlight durring colletion then they will be more supseptable to these organisms. When these corals are placed into the collecters holding tanks these organisms could multiply and feed on these injured corals compounding the problem. The only problem I have with this is that after a coral shows these symtoms they begin to go down hill quickly. Even after being removed from the light that caused the problem in the first place. I don't believe such a coral could mask its problem long enough to make it from the ocean to our aquariums. Especially if you add in parisitic protazoans. After all that, I still believe that if you find an Elegance coral with long flowing tentacles and a deep rich color that the coral is healthy. As long as this coral is protected from bright light and nasty tank mates it should remain healthy. I would not advise anyone to buy an Elegance with short tentacles. This is a dead giveaway that the coral has a problem.

 

[redFishblue]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10045347#post10045347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
These corals can be damaged by bright light faster than they can bleach. The last one I killed died from exposure to a 175W 10K MH. It never looked bleached. It died from its injuries from being burnt. It was doing fine and looked great. I placed it under this light to test its reaction. It began to swell up in seconds. I removed it immediately but the damage had been done. It never opened up again and was dead in 2 days.

I'm surprised it got burned so quickly. But then it could just be a sign of how sensitive they are to bright lighting.
If it is the light, I would have assumed the the part of the elegance to show damage first/most
would be the part exposed to the most light. A lot of the elegances I've seen die seem to show damage first at the ends though for some reason, even if one end is facing away from the light.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10048208#post10048208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redFishblue
I'm surprised it got burned so quickly. But then it could just be a sign of how sensitive they are to bright lighting.
If it is the light, I would have assumed the the part of the elegance to show damage first/most
would be the part exposed to the most light. A lot of the elegances I've seen die seem to show damage first at the ends though for some reason, even if one end is facing away from the light.

I was surprised too.
All the Elegance corals I have see die, do it in the same way you described. No matter what the problem was that killed the coral it seems to always start decomposing from the edges on the skeleton in. I saved one of my corals that started this by cutting it in half. This is a pic of the little guy about a week after I did it. He looks more like and Elegance now, but not my much.

 

[John Kelly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10046302#post10046302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
In the past week I have bought and killed 2 more Elegance corals. That makes 3 during this study. They didn't die from a strange disease or killer protazoans. I killed them by placing them in light that was to bright for them.

Did they bleach, then retract tentacles, then die
or
Did they retract tentacles, bleach, then die
or
Did they retract tentacles then die

Was there any
Puffing up behavior?
Mucous shedding?
Were the tentacles on the specimens pink or purple?
Were the oral areas surrounding the mouths saturated with fluorescent proteins and colorful or were they more clear and less colorful?

I hope you are photo-documenting everything . If only you could examine the zooxanthellae species and/or fluorescent protein crystallizations of each specimen to see if there is a common denominator. The type of zoox and the FP would help determine their sensitivity to light. I wonder if Eric B. has ever thought to have that done . I would bet that there is at least a difference between the zooxanthellae type and probably the FP structure in the deep water vs. shallow water elegance.

PS. That looks like a Goni next to your Elegance.

 

[elegance coral]

No, but this was my Goni next to my Elegance.

Sorry about the quality. No didgital cameras back then.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10053029#post10053029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
Did they bleach, then retract tentacles, then die
or
Did they retract tentacles, bleach, then die
or
Did they retract tentacles then die

Was there any
Puffing up behavior?
Mucous shedding?
Were the tentacles on the specimens pink or purple?
Were the oral areas surrounding the mouths saturated with fluorescent proteins and colorful or were they more clear and less colorful?

I hope you are photo-documenting everything . If only you could examine the zooxanthellae species and/or fluorescent protein crystallizations of each specimen to see if there is a common denominator. The type of zoox and the FP would help determine their sensitivity to light. I wonder if Eric B. has ever thought to have that done . I would bet that there is at least a difference between the zooxanthellae type and probably the FP structure in the deep water vs. shallow water elegance.

PS. That looks like a Goni next to your Elegance.

WOW! Thats allot of questions.
The first Elegance was ill in the LFS. It had lost most of its algae and was somewhat withdrawn but still had a great deal of its secondary pigments (FP). I assumed that it could withstand more light because of the lack of alge in its tissues. I was wrong. It puffed up and withdrew its tentacles under a 250W 10K MH. After removing it from the light it withdrew deeper into its skeleton and never came back. The second one was beautiful! It was bright green with a dark brown color to its tissues. It was fully expanded with tentacles that were almost 2 inches ling. I placed it under a 175W 10K MH. It began discharging something very quickly. It looked like it was smoking. I quickly moved it to PC lighting. It began to puff up and withdraw its tentacles. All of this took about 30 seconds. Within minutes it began withdrawing and was dead in 2 days. I tried iodine dips and cutting it in half, but it was to far gone.
I believe you are right about the different species of zooxanthellae. (algae, for short) Some scientest believe that corals not only have the ability to discharge their algae, but to retain algae from the water. This is why I have several different SPS frags, GSP, a clam, a red brain, many species of shrooms, and 2 species of anemones. My hopes are to have a wide range of algae species in the tank. If this is true it would explain the purpose for bleaching in the first place. If a coral is shaded by a coral above, and that coral becomes dislodged in a storm, the bottom coral would now be exposed to brighter light. Bleaching would expell the algae species that is not suited for this bright light environment and free up space for an algae species that is better suited to this new environment. The top coral landing in a dimmer area of the reef would be able to benefit from the same process. This is all speculation. I can't prove a word of it. If this is true an Elegance coral trying to make the leap from deep water to shallow water lighting could be in big trouble if there isn't an acceptable species of algae in the aquarium.

 

[elegance coral]

PS. That looks like a Goni next to your Elegance.

The pic makes things look much larger than they are. The coral on the left is a sps frag. The Elegance is maybe an inch and a half long. The coral on the right is another Elegance.

 

[elegance coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10041890#post10041890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klownfish
I'm to assume your theroy on light is correct, how would someone correct the lighting if the Elegance coral starts to show signs of "light intoxication" or too much light?

If the polyps start to puff up, and the tentacles shrink, what next? Remove it from the light for 3 days? Jusk keep it under actinics for a few days?

How have you assisted your Elegance in recovery?

If the Elegance will bleach with too little light, get puffed polyps with too much light, what would you recogmend for an Elegance just starting to show "puffed polyp stress"?

What type of lighting do you suggest? At what PAR? How about color? 14k, 20K?? MH,T-5's, PC???
-And thanks!

I wouldn't remove it from light alltogether for any amount of time, other that normal night time darkness. After being exposed to light that is to strong, the coral has been weakened. It will need all the energy it can get to heal. It can't recieve this energy in the dark. There are many light combinations that will work. I don't own a PAR meter and I don't believe most hobiest do eather, so knowing the PAR value would not help most of us. Lighting with a spectrum of 50/50 or maybe a little heavier on the actinic side seems to work best. In my experience these corals show this puffed up response in the presence of bright light or for a short time after being removed from this light. They may also begin to show these signs near the end of a photoperiod that is to long. A coral showing these symptoms should be moved to a dimmer location fast. The amount of damage the coral recieves depends on the intensity and time of exposure to this light. It will take more than a few days for a coral to heal after showing these signs. Anyone placing one of these corals into their tank would need to observe it very closely for these symptoms and adjust its placement or the lighting accordingly. Once the coral is in an environment that is bright enough for photosynthesis but not so bright as to cause it to expell algae from its mouths or swell up and withdraw its tentacles, all we can do is wait. Given time the coral should heal. In extreme cases the coral may begin to die off. Dips in combination with physically cutting through the skeleton to remove the infected area is the only way I have been able to stop this progression.

 

[elegance coral]

Re: elegance

Re: elegance

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10038426#post10038426 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zarro
Hi
Hers a pic of mine ive had now for two years , it under
two 400 wtt 14k Mh . ive got it at the top of the tank . The MH
are 18" from the top of the water ,its placed hafe way under
the tanks brase . I feed it very finely chopped up squid , octpus
i get at walmarts in the seafood depatment.

Beautiful coral.

 

[Bcollins111900]

I have been following this thread and it has inspired me to pick up an elegance coral but it is going to be a Aussie Elegance since they have a better track record.

 

[elegance coral]

Good luck and if you find a place to get Aussie Elegance corals can you hook me up? I have looked but can't seem to find one. Then I will need to talk the wife into letting me buy yet another Elegance. This would be number 12. I think she may take my card away soon.

 

[redFishblue]

Here's my Aussie elegence
Mine is doing well but a friend who got one a little later and his melted within 2-3 weeks.
It was an expensive loss.
So the Aussie ones can be hit and miss like the Indonesian ones I guess.

 

[elegance coral]

Nice coral! Can your friend be sure he had an Aussie Elegance?
Where did you get yours? It looks nice and healthy.