Elegance Coral theory

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10570657#post10570657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Nothing, I think funds ran out and possibly his time is being spent on other things for the time being. Hopefully eventually we will see a conclusion.
From my understanding, hardly any of the funds had been spent (:confused: ). I think most people stopped holding their breath for a conclusion to come out of that "research" a long time ago.

I think you are seeing the true beginning and conclusion of the research here in this thread.
 
This is a post by Eric Borenman on 8-17-07 in a thread on a different site. I don't know how to move the image over to this site.


"First, there are two publications on the collection locales of C. jardinei

1. Bruckner, AW and Borneman EH 2006. Developing a sustainable harvest regime for Indonesia’s stony coral fishery with application to other coral exporting countries. Proc 10ICRS, Okinawa.

2. Bruckner, AW. 2002. Proceedings of the International Workshop on the Trade in Stony Corals; Development of Sustainable Management Guidelines. NOAA Technical Memorandum NMFS-OPR-23, Silver Spring, MD 152pp.

The second is the complete work with surveys in Catalaphyllia collection areas. This was also supplemented by a TRAFFIC report with Carolyn Raymakers a year later. These findings also contrast with the natural location within its range in areas where collection does not occur. Second, I have never suggested a protozoan was involved and I have done the histology on 79 diseased aquarium corals, all of which are available at the International registry for coral pathology if anyone wants to confirm my findings.

There are two consistent intracellular microbes in diseased corals, resulting in granulations of nematocysts, invasion of zooxanthellae and disruption of cellular architecture contingent on the degree of infection. Ciliates are found externally and invading highly degraded tissue, but this is likely a secondary opportunist as the tissue degenerates. Numerous samples have fungal hyphae penetrating the calicoblastic epithelium that could act as a portal of entry. The isolation of the acidophilic bacterial aggregates and the small rod shaped microbes affecting zooxanthellae will require sequencing and I need collaboration and money in order to do that, and that will not likely happen as funding for aquarium related disease is not falling off trees. Our surveys of wild populations and the incidence and prevalence data gained from field surveys, exporters, wholesalers and retailers as well as infection studies suggests a highly contagious species-speciifc condition that is probably rare in the wild but in closed systems has exacerbated effects. One of the 796 microscopy images I have taken to date showing this condition in the tissues is attached."
 
Darrell,

Set up a web site already with your research on it; complete with a re-written theory and detailed time-based photographs to show that the theory works on multiple specimens. Quit wasting your time posting in various reef forums (except this one :) ) debating with other people and trying to get them, and especially "experts", to listen to you. It is NOT going to happen. You will reach a much much larger world wide audience with your own site and you can explain your research in as much detail as you want. If people do not consider your work as "research", then dismiss them as fools and provide them with the evidence you have gathered through your "research". The goal is to bring people to your work and stop trying to take it to them. Another good way to present your work is by giving presentations on it at IMAC or MACNA or other saltwater conferences....or even reef club meetings. Contact the chairman of the event and submit a proposal for your topic of interest. I'm sure many of them would be interested. Also, submit articles to Reefkeeping online mag and Advanced Aquarist online mag.

When you put yourself in a position where you have the opportunity to solve a problem and lead the way to a solution, you become an expert in the eyes of others. There are some hobby "experts" who put themselves in the position of being an expert, but lead the way to nowhere through the lack of any real experience or direction and the subject. It is best just to stay away from these people and avoid them. It is not productive to engage other "experts" in a debate on the matter either. Ignore them and forge ahead, then publish your work on your web site, or book, or magazine, or in a presentation. People will find it, reference it, link to it, and be helped by it in that way.
 
Okay, Okay, Okay, Please don't beat me up! I've been abused enough:lol: .

Your right again John. My wife has been on me about the same things.

I own the domain name "elegancecoral.org" and I have someone working on the site. I talked to him tonight and he said he would have something ready for me in a few days. I am slowly gathering information and photos for the site. I will pick up the passe on this. I am not quite ready to submit an article to one of the online magazines. In a case like mine I will need overwhelming evidence with photos and video to prove my point. The burden of proof that I am facing is huge. Submitting another theory on this subject will not be enough. The evidence I present will have to leave no room for doubt in the readers mind. What I know to be true goes against what all the reef gods have been telling people. To change the way these people view this problem will not be an easy task. You can rest assured that I will not stop until these corals are no longer dieing in the numbers we see today. I believe I will take yours and my wife's advice and stop spending so much time on people that just don't want to look at the facts in this case. For some people the evidence is irrelevant when a reef god says something. There are those that are going to believe the reef gods even when the evidence does not support what they are saying. I will be devoting much more of my time to gathering information and preparing to publish this information. I have not been devoting my time wisely. This is going to change. Thanks again for your input and the scolding. I had it coming.:rolleyes:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10597514#post10597514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
Thanks again for your input and the scolding. I had it coming.:rolleyes:
In retrospect, it wasn't supposed to be like a scolding, but it does kind of sound like one :D. It was supposed to be more like a philosophical plan of action for getting the information about elegance corals out to a much larger audience, achieving recognition for your work, and setting yourself in the official chair of authority on the subject.

That's good news about your web site. Slap up a simple outline with some general information about the elegance coral problem and some information about the solution, and include a few photos. It doesn't have to be super detailed to begin with. The trueness of the information is what's important and the ability for others to follow your guidelines to success. That is the "proof" of your research. You can add more detailed information about your theories and polish your web site over time, while at the same time people are referencing it from all over the world. :thumbsup:

Also I forgot, another way to get your information out is by doing a Talking Reef podcast w/ Rob Weatherly (www.talkingreef.com). It's fun!
 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm rollin here! I can't catch my breath! :lol: :lol:

You just couldn't resist could you? Now you know why I kept going back. It gives you the desire to make them understand but, Like you said, They're not going to get it. In order to understand this they would need at least a basic understanding of the relationship between coral and their algae. The first person that responded to your post over there does not posses this understanding. If he does not understand why a coral would not be damaged by light until after it is removed from the environment it lives in, he has no chance of understand this issue. We can not help this person when they are argumentative and unwilling to learn. With the vast amount of information there is in this hobby we can continue to learn until the day we die and we still won't know it all. The key to continued learning is to keep an open mind. When someone closes their mind to new information or new ideas their learning stops. This is what you see over there. Regardless of the facts or amount of evidence that's presented the blind faith in a reef god will override reality. You should take the advice you gave me and continue the work you have been doing with the Goniapora. It is a waist of time to talk to people that don't want to hear what your saying. I appreciate what you did, but your time and mine is better spent on the animals we care for and the people that truly wish to keep them alive and healthy. Of course, you could continue to help me out like you have:D . At least I appreciate the time you have spent to help with this project.

Thanks again, Darrell
 
:)

I just wanted to paint a picture of how everything could fit together. The effects of oxidative stress are definitely detrimental to a coral on all levels, especially the microscopic level, but those same effects are also manifested in the reactive behavior of the coral, which is what your research is based on. Unfortunately, coral ethologists are rare within this hobby and microbiologists are plentiful.

The problem with microbiologists is that they automatically apply Koch's postulates to every problem in the hobby because every problem looks like a "disease" to them. The desire to tear things apart to find a cause or cure, pathogen or drug, comes naturally. The fact is that most "diseases" in this hobby have been prevented and cured through a change in handling and husbandry habits and techniques.
 
The professionals that have studied this problem have found exactly what I would expect them to find in these dead or dieing corals. They have found damage to cell walls, or cellular architecture. They have found many organisms feeding on this tissue, from what was simply called microbes, to bacteria, fungus, and many other unknown organisms. Examining dead animals like mammals is a great way to determine how they died. Mammals have complexed circulatory systems and many different organs that are responsible for different jobs. We can cut these dead animals open and discover what organ failed and why. This process does not work well with corals. Corals do not die like mammals do. If a mammal's heart stops the entire animal dies. With corals, they die cell by cell. It is more of a chain reaction. It is rare, outside of a catastrophic event, for an entire coral to die all at once, like mammal's do. They do not possess a complext circulatory system or the many organs that can fail like we do. Examining a dead coral is not an easy way to determine how it died. What has been found in dead Elegance corals only tells us that mother nature is working as she has sense life began on this planet. Animals die and many organisms quickly begin to break down the tissues. There has not been a link discovered between these organisms and the cause of the corals death. Simply finding these organisms tells us nothing we didn't already know. In a case like the Elegance coral problem where we have many, if not most, of the corals coming into the hobby suffering from the same symptoms and dieing, the best way, in my opinion, to determine the cause of the corals death would be with living corals. We would need to discover what brings on these symptoms. If it is a highly contagious species specific pathogen we should be able to stock an aquarium with healthy Elegance corals, observe them over time to insure they are healthy, then introduce a coral showing these symptoms and the healthy corals should become ill. I have a 29gl aquarium with 10 Elegance corals in it. Some I have had for well over a year. Some are very healthy, some very ill, and some in recovery. I have repeatedly introduced corals that were swollen or completely withdrawn into their skeleton. The only time I have noticed an adverse reaction from the healthy corals in the tank was when one of the corals had an active infection and tissue was decomposing. Even then the healthy corals while they would not expand fully did not come down with the infection themselves. After the infected tissue was removed from the system the healthy corals returned to their normal expansion. The symptom of an over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles, or completely withdrawing into their skeleton is not contagious. I have mixed corals showing these symptoms with healthy corals many times over the past year and a half and have never noticed a reaction from the healthy corals in the system. This to me rules out the possibility of a highly contagious species specific Pathogen being the cause of the problem. Examining dead Elegance corals can not prove or disprove the involvement of a highly contagious species specific pathogen unless one had been discovered. There is no known organism we can point to and say it is a highly contagious species specific pathogen. No one has even come close to proving its existence.
 
I really like what you are doing Darrell and I hope you don't mind if I play devils advocate. By the way I am a super novice newby who knows nothing trying to do this in a friendly way. Is it possible that when the elegance corals are harvested from the wild that based on the water conditions they come out of, they release this pathogen which only survives long enough to infect other corals in this initial tank? Then it is not contagious after that because the pathogen dies off but the corals are infected and secondary diseases set in? What if it cannot survive in different water which would explain why your corals don't infect each other? Is there anyway you could get a coral sample straight from the wild and see what happens? This seems like the only possible hole that can still be argued against your theory if in fact it is a plausible hole. Have you already thought of this and have done it?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10615365#post10615365 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mental1
I really like what you are doing Darrell and I hope you don't mind if I play devils advocate. By the way I am a super novice newby who knows nothing trying to do this in a friendly way. Is it possible that when the elegance corals are harvested from the wild that based on the water conditions they come out of, they release this pathogen which only survives long enough to infect other corals in this initial tank? Then it is not contagious after that because the pathogen dies off but the corals are infected and secondary diseases set in? What if it cannot survive in different water which would explain why your corals don't infect each other? Is there anyway you could get a coral sample straight from the wild and see what happens? This seems like the only possible hole that can still be argued against your theory if in fact it is a plausible hole. Have you already thought of this and have done it?

I don't mind people questioning what I'm saying in these threads. In fact, people questioning me has helped a great deal. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. I am searching for the truth. Unfortunately what I have found contradicts what many are saying about this problem.

One problem I find with the hypothesis above is that this condition has not been reported in the wild. In order for this to work they would have to repeatedly collect infected corals in order to contaminate the other corals in the holding tanks. If there were that many contaminated corals in the wild, I would think it would have been reported by now. Another problem would be that I can cause these symptoms to appear in my corals. If I lengthen the photo period, increase the PAR, or raise the temp my corals will begin to swell and withdraw their tentacles. If I keep the lighting as it is the corals continue to recover. They grow, their sting becomes much stronger, and their ability to feed improves. In a case like this we need to look at all the information that is available to us. Even if we dismiss everything I have seen in my system, the evidence does not support a pathogen theory. If we apply our basic understanding of corals in general, it would lead us to believe that a change in environment is the problem. The only reason the pathogen theory has gained the support it has is because of who is behind it and not the evidence involved. There is no highly contagious species specific pathogen. The reason they have been unable to find this organism is because it does not exist.
 
Well - we also showed that with my Elegance -- it was unhappy for two reasons: not in the sand and too much light. So are you saying that these symptoms are only found in captivity? Is Eric the expert you are referring to?
 
Yes. These symptoms are only found in captivity. They do show up very quickly after collection. There are many "experts" that agree with the pathogen theory. I was not trying to single out Eric. He has been, until recently, the most outspoken one on the subject though.
 
Well I am ready to hop on your bandwagon then -- I also proved it in my tank. It is doing pretty well. Sometimes the mouth is open quite wide -- what is that an indicator of? Sometimes the mouths just look like a little volcano pushing out, then other times it is light colored, oval and kind of ribbed looking. Am I doing a good job of describing this? Just wondering of there is a significance...
 
I got another elegance coral yesterday afternoon. It just came in and was open pretty good, a lot small then my last one, but looks healthy. I didn’t waste no time and started feeding it krill that night and it took it. Here’s a pic of the elegance about 30 mins. in the tank.

6236nvn.jpg
 
looks real good for only 30 minutes in the tank. How is it doing now? It's also great to hear that its eating already. Sounds like you got a keeper this time. :D
 
I just feed it some silversides and watch it take them.
My atinic are on for 12 hours and the 50/50 are on for 5 hours. So far no swelling. The lights are still high off the tank, when do you think I should bring it down a bit?
 
I appreciate the work that you have done, and it seems to be a good avenue to go down. I have had my own misgivings about the "pathogen" being the problem in these corals. I am a long time propigator, and I remember when halides came out, and the protien skimming thing really took off- the elegances started to have problems. In fact tanks that had kept healthy Es for years with UG filters, crushed coral and normal output flo bulbs- suddenly had problems when the upgrades started. As far as other research goes, I have read them- and find them lacking. I was also disappointed in the one where the fund drive was started and nothing ever came of it. If someone wants to open a tinfoil hat shop- I am all for them doing it- but I am not going to finance it. Others chose to and now all there is- is half finished research and hypothisis- that others choose to use as facts to dissuade further study. Keep up the good work- keep learning and sharing- and keep yourself grounded and real. Only people who feel themselves to be experts have trouble relating and educating. People that are interested in continually learning from anyone and anything they can are the ones that share their knowledge while doing so and thus are the true educators.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9870814#post9870814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
I'm more interested in your feeding. If your willing, I would like to see a little experiment. Try wiggling a small piece of shrimp or fish in its tentacles as if it were a small fish struggling to escape. The Elegance will grab it and put it in its mouth. A day or two later it may contract a little to dispose of any undigested food, but it will come right back. Before you start use a referance point in the tank to note how much the polup expandes. Feed the coral once a week for 8 weeks. At the end of 8 weeks check your referance points to see if the polup is expanding more then it was in the begining. I think you may be shocked at the results. If you don't want to try this because your Elegance is alive and seems to be doing well I understand. I just thought it would be interesting.
Thanks for your input.

I'll help you with this. I have been feeding my elegance coral for two days. I plan on doing this everyday. I don't want the elegance to get a chance to get weak on me. What do you think?
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10687400#post10687400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dla2000
I'll help you with this. I have been feeding my elegance coral for two days. I plan on doing this everyday. I don't want the elegance to get a chance to get weak on me. What do you think?

Don't feed your Elegance every day. Depending on the size of the food and the size of the Elegance, it may take several days to fully digest it's meal. You want to give the coral time to digest it's first meal before you try to feed it again. With your coral I would try feeding it two or three 1/4 inch pieces of shrimp or fish once a week. The size of the Elegance corals mouths is a good indicator as to the size of food you should be feeding. Spread the food out, like one at one end, one in the middle, and one at the other end. Trying to feed the coral every day will eventually just stress it out. After the polyp has grown you can begin offering fewer and larger food items.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10687819#post10687819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
Don't feed your Elegance every day. Depending on the size of the food and the size of the Elegance, it may take several days to fully digest it's meal. You want to give the coral time to digest it's first meal before you try to feed it again. With your coral I would try feeding it two or three 1/4 inch pieces of shrimp or fish once a week. The size of the Elegance corals mouths is a good indicator as to the size of food you should be feeding. Spread the food out, like one at one end, one in the middle, and one at the other end. Trying to feed the coral every day will eventually just stress it out. After the polyp has grown you can begin offering fewer and larger food items.

Ok.
But wouldn't the elegance coral just reject the food if it is full?
I have been feeding it for 3 days now. The next feeding will be saturday. Thanks.

I'm just very happy that it is taking the food. My lights are still way high off the tank.
 
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