Elevated ammonia with tank transfer method?

[cbrprf]

Hi all,
I'm in the process of taking two new fish through the TTM together - a small baby porcupine puffer and a small firefish. Neither have any signs of disease, but I like the idea of doing TTM to assure that they don't have crypto, followed by a couple of weeks of observation in a cycled qt (which I'm still cycling). I'm doing TTM using two 10-gallon Sterilite tubs equipped with PVC pipe sections for hiding places, a heater to maintain temps at about 78-79, and an airstone to keep water moving and good O2 levels. I've read the entire thread about the TTM on this forum, and it seems the general consensus is that water changes aren't really needed because a new tank is provided every third day, and ammonia levels shouldn't really climb much in that period. However...I started the process last night (around 5 p.m.), and this morning at 8 a.m., the ammonia read .5 ppm on my API kit. I'm using RO/DI water that tests 0 ppm. I'm guessing that the "largish" (though small relative to full grown - he's only about 2" at the moment) puffer is creating a fair amount of ammonia relative to the size of the tub. I added Prime (single dose of 2 drops/gallon) this morning as I've seen recommended in the lengthy TTM thread. I'm just wondering if that is sufficient for now, or should I also plan to do some sort of water change daily between transfers? Or should I be using something like Stability? Or if recommended to stick with Prime - how often should I add it between water changes - once/day? I think I saw somewhere that it binds ammonia for about 24 hours - is that correct? I lost a puffer a couple of weeks ago with severely advanced crypto (brought it home from the LFS to try to save it using the TTM, but couldn't win the war...sigh) - I don't want to lose another. (Which raises another question about how exactly to transfer the puffer without transferring water between the tanks as well...but perhaps that's a discussion for another thread?)

Thank you for any input! Your help is much appreciated!

 

[Dmorty217]

Ammonia is the biggest issue when using TT. I would use prime everyday especially with the puffer, they produce a lot of waste. The ammonia alert badges work well to keep you on top of the ammonia spikes, but they aren't fool proof. I transferred the fish to the new TT using my hand to avoid possibly injuring the fish

 

[cbrprf]

Okay, will add the Prime daily. Thanks! I wish i could find the ammonia badges, but they aren't sold locally. Should order some online, probably.

My concern with transferring the puffer is that they are not ever supposed to be exposed to air... so maybe even a hand transfer would be risky? I've seen a number of people ask about how to do ttm with a puffer, but haven't seen a specific answer. Hoping someone with a puffer can weigh in.

 

[NTP66]

Considering how quickly you'll be able to transfer the puffer (assuming the tanks are close), I don't think you have too much to worry about. My puffer was fine throughout TTM. You just have to be a little patient capturing and moving him.

Here's my post from another thread on how to transfer fish:

Though I absolutely hate shopping there, you simply cannot beat Walmart's 3-piece colander set for under $6: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-3pc-Colander-Set/16451276

I've used all three sizes on my fish for TTM and it has worked perfectly.

The colander is easy on both you and the fish, and makes transfers a walk in the park.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Okay, will add the Prime daily. Thanks! I wish i could find the ammonia badges, but they aren't sold locally. Should order some online, probably.

My concern with transferring the puffer is that they are not ever supposed to be exposed to air... so maybe even a hand transfer would be risky? I've seen a number of people ask about how to do ttm with a puffer, but haven't seen a specific answer. Hoping someone with a puffer can weigh in.

I've seen these at Wal-Mart; the Neiman-Marcus of the small-town south, where I live. FWIW: I've moved several puffers by hand without any problems.

 

[cbrprf]

Can you believe it? Our Walmart doesn't carry those colanders! Guess I'll try the hand method on Monday morning! And for the record, Steve, your opinion is worth a ton to me -

I did pick up some Stability - has anyone used that with ttm?

 

[125mph]

I am using amquel plus with TTM. I dose daily to keep ammonias in the non-toxic form. Stablity could work but it says the spores are released after 24 hours. Since TTM happens every 3 days, I dont think stability will do that much good.

On the plus note, all my fish are eating really well now that I switched them from cupramine to TTM.

 

[cbrprf]

I couldn't help but test the ammonia again tonight (after doing a 40% water change this afternoon because the water looked cloudy, and after adding Prime and Stability to the new water). It was up more - if my API kit is reading correctly (which I think it is), it's around .75 ppm. But I have added Prime to the recommended dose, which should lock up 1 ppm... and I know the reading won't reflect that. But it's still nerve-wracking to see those numbers! Have others seen those numbers too? Or is my puffer just really cranking out the ammonia? He is active and looks great - and ate for the first time tonight (and a LOT - but yes, after feeding him, I siphoned out as much debris as I could from the bottom of the tank).

I'm such a worrier... ugh.

As for the Stability needing 24 hours... hmmm, if that's true, perhaps I'll plan to set up the other tank tomorrow and add the Stability at that time - then the bacteria would be active by the time the transfer occurs Monday. I think getting some bacteria in the tanks might help with the ammonia problem from this adorable little guy.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[125mph]

But I have added Prime to the recommended dose, which should lock up 1 ppm... and I know the reading won't reflect that. But it's still nerve-wracking to see those numbers! Have others seen those numbers too?

What do you mean the API test won't reflect the correct ammonia? I believe it does. After I dose with Amquel+, the API ammonia test definitely reads less ammonia. I beleive API test uses salicylate which is compatible with not reading the non-toxic ammonia that occurs when you use prime or amquel. Someone chime in here, if I have it right?

Check out this post about the topic: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=947573

 

[cbrprf]

I saw a lot of people posting that information on various forums. I know that the Nessler-based kits are stated as releasing the ammonia during testing - but Seachem has apparently told people that the API kits may read erroneously (at least in SW) as well. If that's incorrect, and API kits read accurately in the presence of Prime, then I have a big problem, as my ammonia is too high for these guys. I did two partial water changes yesterday, and added Prime each time, but my ammonia is still high. I'm hoping that tomorrow, when I transfer them to the new tank with the Stability already in it, that we'll be able to keep the ammonia down - hopefully there hasn't actually been a lot of free ammonia and my kit is reading wrong. I don't want to poison my new fish with ammonia!!!

To others who have done TTM with a puffer - did you not have this ammonia trouble?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Can you believe it? Our Walmart doesn't carry those colanders! Guess I'll try the hand method on Monday morning! And for the record, Steve, your opinion is worth a ton to me -

I did pick up some Stability - has anyone used that with ttm?

I meant seeing the ammonia badges at WM.

Re: Your post above. Most ammonia tests will still show ammonia after it has been neutralized. Use the ammonia neutralizers as directed, overdose a little if you want. , they're safe. You'll still get an ammonia reading, but trust the product. Prime, Am-Quel, Ammolock, etc. are all basically the same.

Stability is a bacteria-in-a- a bottle product that will do nothing during tank-transfer. I don't think it does anything anyhow. There are two bacteria starter/helpers that seem to do their job: Bio-Spira and Dr. Tim's. But they are no help in TTM treatment. They need substrate, LR, and time to work. None of which you have when doing TTM. Just use the ammonia neutralizers and you'll be fine with ammonia.

 

[cbrprf]

Oh, sorry. I actually did check Walmart for the badges too, but no go. However, I did find one at another lfs in town when I was picking up more base rock for our dt - but the salesperson indicated I would probably get a false reading with the Prime, just like with the API kit. I really wish I knew what to make of the ammonia readings at this point (whether to believe them, or to trust the Prime is working).

Both fish just ate a huge breakfast, so even with the perceived ammonia levels being really high, they are active and have an appetite. Though the puffer is now resting on the bottom of the tank - he looks like how I feel after a big meal... Hopefully that is normal behavior for him and not a sign of a problem.

 

[cbrprf]

And thank you, Steve, for giving me hope that the elevated readings are likely false. It eases my mind a bit. If the Stability didn't help, I guess that's okay - but it can't hurt to add it just in case, can it?

 

[MrTuskfish]

And thank you, Steve, for giving me hope that the elevated readings are likely false. It eases my mind a bit. If the Stability didn't help, I guess that's okay - but it can't hurt to add it just in case, can it?

Probably won't hurt, just a waste of money. There are some of these bacteria starters that have been blamed for fish deaths...Right Now! was one of the brands. If you want to use a bacteria starter; stick to Bio-Spira or Dr. Tims.

 

[Deinonych]

If you want to use a bacteria starter; stick to Bio-Spira or Dr. Tims.

+1

IME Stability does not work, or it takes a really long time for the bacteria population to grow. Bio-Spira gives great results every time.

 

[NTP66]

+2

I used both BioSpira and Dr. Tim's, and had success with each (quickly, too).