emperor angel sick, please advice

[sandwi54]

Hey dude please see this from the other section


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1260067

Fluke
The obvious symptoms:

1) Fish twitching the head side to side once in a while like if wanted to shake something off his head.

2) Discolored blotches of skin (Most people think this is velvet or some bacterial infection and misdiagnose it with antibiotics)

3) Frayed fins or tail.

4) Sudden loss of appetite. Fish was fine yesterday but today it’s not eating at all.

5) Cloudy eye(s)

6) Rapid breathing

they had 1, 2, 4, 5, 6

maybe 3 too

I heard Velvet wipes the tank in 24-48 hours

the fish store does not use copper, they had live rocks in the tank the fish were @ and angels hates copper

so if it was velvet all the fish there would have been dead

Thanks

You should also understand that the symptoms listed here are really general, and pretty much applies to any parasitic infections. Symptoms 1) and 6) are symptoms of ANY parasite in the gills. The fish are in discomfort from the parasites in the gills so they have to breathe faster and twitch. Symptoms 2), 3), 4), and 5) are just secondary bacterial or viral infections which could result from ANY parasitic infections. Ich, velvet, brooklynella, flukes, etc. can all result in secondary bacterial infectons.

Truth is, without external symptoms, you should just treat for the most common parasites. In this case, the white dusty film is an evidence for velvet.

 

[geaux xman]

some of those fish might not handle copper well especially the flame and anthias.

maybe a 55g would do.

another option you can do is treat all the fish in the 55g, prazipro 3-4 times. dont add any new fish into that QT/hospital tank and leave the fish in there for 2 months. leave the DT fallow for 2 months. if you dont run into anymore problems with all the fish in the 55g, then transfer them over to the DT.

if you continue to have problems with the fish in the QT tank, then start the copper treatment.

just a thought. maybe someone else will give an opinion on this. personally i would treat copper+prazi especially since you had previous issues of ich, but the treatment i laid out could work okay for you as well.

 

[LukFox]

You should also understand that the symptoms listed here are really general, and pretty much applies to any parasitic infections. Symptoms 1) and 6) are symptoms of ANY parasite in the gills. The fish are in discomfort from the parasites in the gills so they have to breathe faster and twitch. Symptoms 2), 3), 4), and 5) are just secondary bacterial or viral infections which could result from ANY parasitic infections. Ich, velvet, brooklynella, flukes, etc. can all result in secondary bacterial infectons.

Truth is, without external symptoms, you should just treat for the most common parasites. In this case, the white dusty film is an evidence for velvet.

Exactly this.

 

[LargeAngels]

It is VERY easy to determine if fish have velvet. Do a FW dip. If you see "dust" on the bottom of the container you have velvet.

Angels will handle Cupramine copper just fine.

A QT doesn't have to be fancy. Good water and stable water parameters is all that is really needed. Have a good bio filter and don't overfeed. Easiest way is to have some bio media in the main tank and when you need a QT just take that media out and place it in a filter in the QT.

 

[MrTuskfish]

It is VERY easy to determine if fish have velvet. Do a FW dip. If you see "dust" on the bottom of the container you have velvet.

Angels will handle Cupramine copper just fine.

A QT doesn't have to be fancy. Good water and stable water parameters is all that is really needed. Have a good bio filter and don't overfeed. Easiest way is to have some bio media in the main tank and when you need a QT just take that media out and place it in a filter in the QT.

+! And, IME, Cupramine is very effective and safe at a slightly lower dose (.35ppm), especially on dwarf angels.

 

[Pran]

Thanks all ...I did a FW on my personifier before and after, but ddint really see any dust (exp after)

I have a tank ready for QT and salt water ready too, the prazi treatment is going on, the fish are looking a little better than how they were on tue/wed.

If anything happens today, I will put all the fish into the QT, if not, leave it the tank and doing 2nd and 3rd treatment of prazi pro.

Thanks all
will keep all you posted.

I believe my personifier died from bleeding, after the FW dip it looked clean, so prob from all the holes in its body.


btw, are fishs' blood red?

 

[MrTuskfish]

What does "(exp after)" in the above post mean? Yes, fish blood is red. I can't imagine a fish bleeding to death after fluke treatment. IMO, there is a whole lot more than flukes involved with your fish.

 

[Pran]

Sorry ...especially after, b/c before I did it in a salt bucket, but after I did it in a 1 litter clear cup,

Yes you are right however, from this fluke section it states, if the fluke is in advance stage it won’t cure the fish, and it was at the advance stage for the personifier.

Correct me if I am wrong, Fluke is like worms that are drilled into the fish's skin, so when all falls out, there are holes in the fish and it bleeds to death - it doesn't make any sense but think about it this way

When you get a screw on ur car tire, the tire will loose air slowly, but if u pull the screw out without patching the tire, u loose all the air

 

[MrTuskfish]

Sorry ...especially after, b/c before I did it in a salt bucket, but after I did it in a 1 litter clear cup,

Yes you are right however, from this fluke section it states, if the fluke is in advance stage it won't cure the fish, and it was at the advance stage for the personifier.

Correct me if I am wrong, Fluke is like worms that are drilled into the fish's skin, so when all falls out, there are holes in the fish and it bleeds to death - it doesn't make any sense but think about it this way

When you get a screw on ur car tire, the tire will loose air slowly, but if u pull the screw out without patching the tire, u loose all the air

Blood clots, air doesn't.

 

[Pran]

Ok I am gonna do fw dip on my emp and scribble tomorrow
just a little scared that it may kill them
Thx

 

[MrTuskfish]

Ok I am gonna do fw dip on my emp and scribble tomorrow
just a little scared that it may kill them
Thx

I really don't know what you should do. I've tried to follow this thread and am very confused. I am not saying to dip or not to dip (cma time); I just don't know enough about your situation to know. However, fish bleeding to death when flukes drop off is just something I can't imagine. Dips are a complex subject, with or without meds. If I read the thread, and you're using PP; the dips may confirm flukes or provide some temporary relief. But, if the fish aren't getting worse, why dip them? I can't offer any advice, just offering opinions. BTW, where did you get the idea that dropping flukes would cause a fish to bleed to death?

 

[Pran]

Hello MrTuckfish

In the fluke thread

Fish was ok on thur but getting bad today
I am gonna fw dip emp and scribble today and water change tomorrow and start 2nd treatment
Of prazi pro tomorrow

 

[geaux xman]

so the emp and the scribbled both have cloudy eyes? any head twitching? how are they eating at the moment?

 

[LargeAngels]

So what ever happened with all the fish?

 

[cngreg]

From the beginning

From the beginning

I am lucky enough to have access to a microscope and when I see cloudiness or suspect something wrong with the gills, if i can catch the fish, i can take a skin scrape or gill clip then look at it under the scope. A lot less guess work; right away I can see ciliate parasites vs flukes. Amyloodinium looks different from brooklynella and uronema. Crypt is easy.

If you aren't comfortable doing this or don't have the resources you can find a cool vet, tell them you want a skin scrape, fin clip, gill clip, and scopework, and then pay the visit fee (30-50$) to bring your fish in and get an ID. Worst case scenario is you find nothing and then, while the parasites aren't ruled out, bacteria (or maybe a rare myxozoan or virus) may be more the cause.

This has been an epic thread of guessing and opinions but there might have been/may still be a way to figure out the disease definitively.

Most vets don't know much about fish disease but if you can find one who's willing to work with you synergistically, they have some good resources.

 

[Klila]

I used Paraguard for the velvet and prazipro dips for flukes. Had both at the same time. Paraguard is broad spectrum, covers many diseases. Just make sure you take charcoal out and remove the skimmer cup. If you fish has a lot of flukes, when then worms exit it literally leaves holes for which your fish bleed to death. I've heard copper is effective as well, but don't have experience. If I read correctly, you used water from a cichlid tank? This should never be done as you could be infecting the fish with other pathogens. Preferable is I/O, match ph and oxygenate with air pump and stone before doing fw bath. Hope your fish made it, velvet is brutal.