Friday Night
New member
Forget names, strains,origin etc
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.
Fast/slow growers, really?
- Thread starter MUCHO REEF
- Start date
A. Grandis
Active member
The first aspect that came in my mind was the adaptation to the natural environment (previous post), because the question was related to the genetic aspect.
Now, another point of view on the subject...
The option "maybe" would be related to the "several factors" in the above post and more...
So I think if we look at the many variables that we could find, all different in many types of systems, we would see why there is so many different growth/reproduction rates within "same species" of zoas.
In that case, it really depends...
Plus, with all the cartoon names it's so hard to really know if they're talking about the exactly same species...
Even though it's not directly linked to the genetic pont of view, it's important in the growth/reproduction rates.
It depend on what direction you're looking at.
Grandis.
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A. Grandis
Active member
I said yes. Those two that said maybe, that seems to just be a way to cop out. The thoughts about something only being four inches away though really doesn't matter. Par could vary enough either way which may affect it and same with flow. One may be doing wonderful, but a few inches away the par can drop or be just a bit higher, flow just a bit off because of something blocking it a little. Either may be exactly what a particular zoa wants and it just goes bananas. Take one part away and crap, it just sits there.
Shut up Mike.
Shut up Mike.
A. Grandis
Active member
But the original question has to do with "genetically predisposed".
Your explanation is towards physical placement/PAR. Still valid though.
I think the two that said "maybe" didn't understand the question.
Good observation about the PAR!
Grandis.
Ok, we are starting to stray a bit. Allow me to put this in real time terms that we see applicable everyday/everywhere and put this back on track. I gave a perfect example in my original post of Timmy and Billy Ray in my first post 
. We've all heard there are a host of polyps being categorized, labeled, sold and traded both here and on every other reef site as (fast/very fast growers). Conversely, there are those who have stated there are a host of polyps which are slow growers, extremely slow growers etc etc. I used the term genetic predisposition to get away from names as so many have multiple names and I hate them them all. So if you want to include or exclude genetics, the same with names or any other charactorization, that's ok with me. The question still remains below.
Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?
If you have already voted and wish to change your answer either way, then post that answer here in this thread as you can only vote once above.
Hey thanks again to everyone for the feedback.
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
. We've all heard there are a host of polyps being categorized, labeled, sold and traded both here and on every other reef site as (fast/very fast growers). Conversely, there are those who have stated there are a host of polyps which are slow growers, extremely slow growers etc etc. I used the term genetic predisposition to get away from names as so many have multiple names and I hate them them all. So if you want to include or exclude genetics, the same with names or any other charactorization, that's ok with me. The question still remains below.Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?
If you have already voted and wish to change your answer either way, then post that answer here in this thread as you can only vote once above.
Hey thanks again to everyone for the feedback.
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
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That is what I said yes to. The comments about par and flow just go to some reasons some may multiply faster then the same in a given space even though they are 4 inches away in the same tank.
I guess I should say, when you get that right spot, where a specific zoa gets exactly what it wants, it can explode. Remove just a bit of par, flow or even a nutrient level change, and things "may" change. Some seem to still do ok with this, some don't, hence the "genetically predisposed" part.
Good to see you stop by Misled. Maybe using that term was a bad choice of words on my part, so blame me for that. Thus I clarified myself in my above post.
Mooch
PS. On another note, 643 views and only 42 votes?
Mooch
PS. On another note, 643 views and only 42 votes?
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You'll see more of me here now Mooch. I'm changing out my tank. I've dumped my sps except for one. The leathers will be gone in the next day or so. For the next few years the tank will be set up for mainly zoas. Changed the halide to 20k to show off colors. I think I'm pulling my fuge if I don't see any growth soon. Just one of those things. Got tired of the old set-up.
A. Grandis
Active member
Ok, we are starting to stray a bit. Allow me to put this in real time terms that we see applicable everyday/everywhere and put this back on track. I gave a perfect example in my original post of Timmy and Billy Ray in my first post
Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?
If you have already voted and wish to change your answer either way, then post that answer here in this thread as you can only vote once above.
Hey thanks again to everyone for the feedback.
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
The "(fast/very fast growers)" and "slow growers, extremely slow growers etc etc" labels are just one more commercial way to identify their "product$$$" IMO. Just like the cartoon name$$$.
It's getting a bit confusing now with the multiple meanings and different questions... :strange:
I think people already exposed their thoughts and perhaps you should stick with the "genetic predisposition" term for this thread. Other wise the pool won't be accurate.
Perhaps you could open a new thread with the new question:
Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?
Just a suggestion. What do you think?
:thumbsup:
Grandis.
There is no need to be confused, I simplified it as best as I can. It's a simple question, do you believe some polyps are fast growers and others are slower growers? I tried to simplify it for everyone to understand as others were kinda taking it somewhere else. My question never mentioned anything about variables, palcement, lighting etc. Why? Whenever I have read, seen witnessed the statement "they are very fast growers or they are very slower growers", the variables stated above were never mentioned. Thus I used the term inherent. Many here in this thread alone have stated some are faster growers and some are slow growers. I would love to hear why they feel the way they do either way.
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
A. Grandis
Active member
Ok, no problem...
I was thinking mainly about the differences between the terms, but...
The way the feel is the answer why they believe their polyps are growing faster than others.
Most of the time that has something to do with the physical and chemical aspects of the tank, like the light and nutrients.
That's why is hard to put that aside when they answer, I guess.
It's a good and interesting subject! :thumbsup:
I'll be tagging along...
Grandis.
I was thinking mainly about the differences between the terms, but...
The way the feel is the answer why they believe their polyps are growing faster than others.
Most of the time that has something to do with the physical and chemical aspects of the tank, like the light and nutrients.
That's why is hard to put that aside when they answer, I guess.
It's a good and interesting subject! :thumbsup:
I'll be tagging along...
Grandis.
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Hard to say for many reasons. Like someone stated...times of nutrient depletion...etc. Who is to know.
But one thing I have noticed pretty much across the board....when I frag Z and P....if I am going quick and treat them kind of rough, I would swear they have faster sprouting on the remaining colony. I'll carefully slide a new razor blade under a couple to slide them off their frag or rock...gently glue them down on their new home....and fine...nothing. They grow normally...the colony does too.
But if it's a day when I'm going quick....oppps...sliced one a little deep.....had to pull that one off a little harder than I like etc.....within a day or two, the remaining colony has sprouted 2-5 new heads.
At first I didn't think of it much...but then I started to look for it and am fairly convinced of it. Now I wonder if I am seeing a "fight or die" response? Like maybe when I am not as careful...they sense something is wrong and immediately begin to reproduce? No idea. Certainly not any kind of science to what I am reporting. But it is more than "hhhmmm...I think I saw...."
But one thing I have noticed pretty much across the board....when I frag Z and P....if I am going quick and treat them kind of rough, I would swear they have faster sprouting on the remaining colony. I'll carefully slide a new razor blade under a couple to slide them off their frag or rock...gently glue them down on their new home....and fine...nothing. They grow normally...the colony does too.
But if it's a day when I'm going quick....oppps...sliced one a little deep.....had to pull that one off a little harder than I like etc.....within a day or two, the remaining colony has sprouted 2-5 new heads.
At first I didn't think of it much...but then I started to look for it and am fairly convinced of it. Now I wonder if I am seeing a "fight or die" response? Like maybe when I am not as careful...they sense something is wrong and immediately begin to reproduce? No idea. Certainly not any kind of science to what I am reporting. But it is more than "hhhmmm...I think I saw...."
Compared to many of you I'm humbly a noob at this, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. My observations and many hours of reading, would say all thing being equal. Meaning that if each environment matched the environment that the zoas were taken from. I would have to say all zoas should grow at about the same rate.
However, this is an impossible task in the hobby, because each of us have different chemistry, par values, circulation, nutrients, mixed corals, ect. Basically, we build an environment we like: not an environment for specific species from same location. So, the REAL answer is there ARE fast or slow growers based on each individual system.
A friend and I bought the same 2 polyps frag 8 months ago. His frag has grown to approximately 6 polyps. Mine currently has about 15-25 polyps. Why? I have no idea. He has others that actually outgrow the same type in my tank.
Great discussion though, I'm sure I'm about to learn more. Thanks for starting the thread.
However, this is an impossible task in the hobby, because each of us have different chemistry, par values, circulation, nutrients, mixed corals, ect. Basically, we build an environment we like: not an environment for specific species from same location. So, the REAL answer is there ARE fast or slow growers based on each individual system.
A friend and I bought the same 2 polyps frag 8 months ago. His frag has grown to approximately 6 polyps. Mine currently has about 15-25 polyps. Why? I have no idea. He has others that actually outgrow the same type in my tank.
Great discussion though, I'm sure I'm about to learn more. Thanks for starting the thread.
Mr D smack
Active member
I voted yes.
I put AOGs, Purple Hornets, and Red Hornets in the same day. The AOGs started out with 5 heads now has 11. Purple Hornets had 4 heads now have 6. The Red Hornets started off with 7 now have 9.
I put AOGs, Purple Hornets, and Red Hornets in the same day. The AOGs started out with 5 heads now has 11. Purple Hornets had 4 heads now have 6. The Red Hornets started off with 7 now have 9.
Anyone else care to leave a comment, opinion or a vote?
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
Thanks again to all who have replied and voted.
I've capsulized all of your most important points that have been stated in your post thus far. I've listed them below in preparation for tomorrow's discussion as we take this a bit further. The poll has ran a consistent high 80 % that there are indeed fast/faster, slow/slower growers in the zoanthus genus.
Stop my tomorrow and join the discussion :thumbsup:
Dmorty217 - I think it depends on how many times the piece has been fragged and grown and fragged etc... Better suited for tank life.
KafudaFish - It has been shown that in marine bacteria the amount of RNA content is strongly correlated with growth rate. Though it maybe a leap up to this level of complexity it could be similar.
Jarred1 - I believe that it all depends on the water parameters. The zoas have to have different growth rates under different conditions because in the wild the mats of zoas a usually of the same polyp.
A.Grandis - I believe that different species of zoanthids can grow faster than others mainly because of their natural differencies in adaptation to the environment they are found. When we put the zoanthids in a tank they will be vulnerable to the conditions we offer, so the polyps normally found in environment similar will thrive a little faster. There are many different types of environments that zoanthids come from and only the collector would know.
It's so good when we find the common denominator (temp, water flow, params, etc...) for all the species we want to keep!!!
That way, some places in the wild will develop a population of predominant zoanthids species found in that area. Normally those will have a very close genetical relationship among themselves (mother colonies and daughter colonies found in the same geographic area). In that sense, they could be considered generically faster growers than other existing species in the same environment with a slower growth, and vice versa.
Another thing is the size of the colony. Generally speaking, the larger the colony or "frag" the better chances for a faster adaptation and immunization aspects. But that has little to do with genetically related.
Ghostreef - Depends on several factors, like lighting type/output, flow, and nutrient availability. Some organisms are just naturally more efficient at utilizing their environment.
.
Friday Night - Forget names, strains,origin etc
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.
Misled - Par could vary enough either way which may affect it and same with flow.
zoafarm - if each environment matched the environment that the zoas were taken from. I would have to say all zoas should grow at about the same rate.
However, this is an impossible task in the hobby, because each of us have different chemistry, par values, circulation, nutrients, mixed corals, ect. Basically, we build an environment we like: not an environment for specific species from same location. So, the REAL answer is there ARE fast or slow growers based on each individual system.
A friend and I bought the same 2 polyps frag 8 months ago. His frag has grown to approximately 6 polyps. Mine currently has about 15-25 polyps. Why? I have no idea. He has others that actually outgrow the same type in my tank.
I think there are to many variables to honestly determine growth rates
How do you explain variables that we could find, all different in many types of systems, we would see why there is so many different growth/reproduction rates within "same species" of zoas.
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
I've capsulized all of your most important points that have been stated in your post thus far. I've listed them below in preparation for tomorrow's discussion as we take this a bit further. The poll has ran a consistent high 80 % that there are indeed fast/faster, slow/slower growers in the zoanthus genus.
Stop my tomorrow and join the discussion :thumbsup:
Dmorty217 - I think it depends on how many times the piece has been fragged and grown and fragged etc... Better suited for tank life.
KafudaFish - It has been shown that in marine bacteria the amount of RNA content is strongly correlated with growth rate. Though it maybe a leap up to this level of complexity it could be similar.
Jarred1 - I believe that it all depends on the water parameters. The zoas have to have different growth rates under different conditions because in the wild the mats of zoas a usually of the same polyp.
A.Grandis - I believe that different species of zoanthids can grow faster than others mainly because of their natural differencies in adaptation to the environment they are found. When we put the zoanthids in a tank they will be vulnerable to the conditions we offer, so the polyps normally found in environment similar will thrive a little faster. There are many different types of environments that zoanthids come from and only the collector would know.
It's so good when we find the common denominator (temp, water flow, params, etc...) for all the species we want to keep!!!
That way, some places in the wild will develop a population of predominant zoanthids species found in that area. Normally those will have a very close genetical relationship among themselves (mother colonies and daughter colonies found in the same geographic area). In that sense, they could be considered generically faster growers than other existing species in the same environment with a slower growth, and vice versa.
Another thing is the size of the colony. Generally speaking, the larger the colony or "frag" the better chances for a faster adaptation and immunization aspects. But that has little to do with genetically related.
Ghostreef - Depends on several factors, like lighting type/output, flow, and nutrient availability. Some organisms are just naturally more efficient at utilizing their environment.
.
Friday Night - Forget names, strains,origin etc
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.
Misled - Par could vary enough either way which may affect it and same with flow.
zoafarm - if each environment matched the environment that the zoas were taken from. I would have to say all zoas should grow at about the same rate.
However, this is an impossible task in the hobby, because each of us have different chemistry, par values, circulation, nutrients, mixed corals, ect. Basically, we build an environment we like: not an environment for specific species from same location. So, the REAL answer is there ARE fast or slow growers based on each individual system.
A friend and I bought the same 2 polyps frag 8 months ago. His frag has grown to approximately 6 polyps. Mine currently has about 15-25 polyps. Why? I have no idea. He has others that actually outgrow the same type in my tank.
I think there are to many variables to honestly determine growth rates
How do you explain variables that we could find, all different in many types of systems, we would see why there is so many different growth/reproduction rates within "same species" of zoas.
MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003
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Really hoping to get at least 100 votes.
Mooch
Mooch
