Fauna Marin Trace unbalanced?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does anyone know if this product provides a balanced amount of sulfate to the chloride that is added?

These are the directions, specifically instructing you to add no magnesium sulfate. Consequently, I don't see where enough sulfate can be coming from. Anyone know? If not, why design it this way?

I assume that "carbonate mix" is sodium bicarbonate and carbonate that you get from BRS or other suppliers, and not a mix of other things? But if it also includes a lot of sodium sulfate, then it might be balanced.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/catalog/product/view/id/2618/

Manufacturer's Instructions:

1st 5 L Container
1. Dissolve 2 kg of calcium chloride dihydrate in 4 liters of RO water and then fill the container with RO water.
2. NOTE: Always add the salt to the water - never vice versa!
3. Then add 25 mL Balling Light 1 - Color & Grow Elements and 25 mL Balling Light Trace 2 - Metabolic Elements to the container.

2nd 5 L Container
:
1. Dissolve 2 kg of magnesium chloride hexahydrate in 4 liters of RO water and then fill the container with RO water.
2. This new method does not require magnesium sulphate as it would accumulate in the water. Nothing else is added to this canister

3rd 5 L Container:
1. Dissolve 500 g of Carbonate Mix in 4 liters of RO water and then fill the container with RO water.
2. Then add 25 mL Balling Light Trace 3 0 Health Elements to container.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Maybe we can get Claude Schuhmacher back on this thread, that's always fun.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I just communicated with BRS (who sells it and they confirm that it likely is not sulfate balanced. I can't imagine why they decided to do that, but I don't recommend this product for that reason.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you really want to use the Fauna Marin Trace, I'd alter their directions:

Dissolve 2 kg of magnesium chloride hexahydrate in 4 liters of RO water and then fill the container with RO water.
2. This new method does not require magnesium sulphate as it would accumulate in the water. Nothing else is added to this canister


Instead of that, use about 1250 grams of the magnesium chloride hexahydrate and 750 grams of magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (epsom salts). That's about a 5:3 volume ratio, if you are measuring that way.

 

[ormet]

I would like Claude to comment on this since i use FM Trace (or balling as we call it in europe).

I have never really thought of this, just assumed that regular water changes keeps everything balanced.

The FM salts costs multiple times more then non brand name balling salts.

Also FWIW i've used it for several years and my tank is kinda thriving. SO maybe it is a non issue?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you do sufficient water changes, it likely will keep things adequately in check, but not perfectly. I show that in this article, but from the standpoint of using only magnesium sulfate instead of using only magnesium chloride. The effect in the reverse is smaller:

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

from it:

Figure 25. Sulfate concentration as a function of time when performing daily water changes equivalent to 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month (in other words, 0%, 0.25%, 0.5% and 1% per day). In this example, sulfate starts at a natural level of 2710 ppm, and the model assumes usage of a moderate amount of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate to maintain calcium and alkalinity, and Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to maintain magnesium.

 

[ormet]

After some discussion with a few european reefers "in the know" i am not worried.

Im not a chemist so i will leave it at that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would be nice if there was some data on the effects of the chloride to sulfate ratio on marine organisms, but I've never seen any.

I just don't understand why someone would intentionally design a product that does this when not doing so is almost trivially easy, and might be cheaper.

 

[Azmanjim]

Maybe someone could ask on his sponsor thread on UR?? Although I find FM tend to delete questions that they don't want to answer, rather than help!!

 

[Eyore]

kind of regretting this already, however!

to me the problem is establishing what is dilution (needing replacement) (from withdrawal to maintain salinity), and what is use (requiring dose), which to my knowledge isnt fixed

so 1 mg, 2 so4, 14 cl very roughly (kind of busy sat in my van lol, but cant get a pen and paper out)

mg so4 is 1 part mg to 4 so4
mg cl is 1 part mg to 3 so4 very roughly

to affect dilution something like 1 part mgso4 and 1.2 part mgcl gives 1,2,1.8 approx, so chloride dilutes, however mg and so4 are balanced
for a dose magnesium is used so really you just want to balance chloride to sulphate so 1mg so4 to 6.7 mg cl

all annydrous (needs factoring for the water) sorry I worked this out in my head so I really apologise for any error.

anyway, my point is what what is balanced? when something us needed to create seawater and used in calcification at variable amounts

I think claude really has just simplified matters so that it morks for 99.99% and is hard to make a complete mess of it. Dosing balanced will lead more to make a mess of it when things turn out not to be

 

[viktor72]

Its difficult to assume that Schumaher forgot to add sulfate in baliing.But it is easy to assume he is not telling everything,like all other brands

 

[dkeller_nc]

As I understand it, one is to use "sodium chloride-free sea-salt" (Balling part 3) as a means of countering the excess chloride that would accumulate from the use of calcium chloride and magnesium chloride.

Of course to me, "sodium-chloride-free sea-salt" is an oxymoron. If it doesn't contain sodium chloride, it's not sea-salt.

 

[ormet]

In Balling light, no NaCL-free salt is used.

http://static.faunamarin.de/manuals/manual_balling-methode_eng.pdf

 

[Eyore]

As I understand it, one is to use "sodium chloride-free sea-salt" (Balling part 3) as a means of countering the excess chloride that would accumulate from the use of calcium chloride and magnesium chloride.

Of course to me, "sodium-chloride-free sea-salt" is an oxymoron. If it doesn't contain sodium chloride, it's not sea-salt.

classic balling method uses

sodium bicarbonate 84g/l (a)sodium)
calcium chloride dehydrate 73.5g /l (b)chloride)
nacl free salt (any thing not provided in (a) and (b) to create seawater, which can include sodium and will contain chloride. ie magnesium chloride, potassium chloride, calcium chloride, strontium chloride, magnesium sulphate etc (not easy to say 100% not like a maker will tell me!)

 

[Jimmy54]

kind of regretting this already, however!

:lmao:
Isn't sulfate replenished by NaCl free salt?
According my calculations (ICP tests) each 25 grams contains a little over 5 grams magnesium.
Assuming that a certain amount is MgSO4, it should replenish enough sulfate.

I have calculated and combined my own "NaCl free salt"
When after 17 days 5 liter of NaHCO3 (420 grams) has finished, I have removed 10.5 liter of water from the system (including skim-mate) to stabilize salinity.
With that withdrawal I have automatically removed 10.5*2,7 is roughly 28 grams of sulfate which can be found in approx 73 grams of MgSO4 7H2O
which also holds 7 grams of magnesium.
Another 132 grams of MgCl2 6H2O compensates for, in my case, 10 grams of magnesium consumption
and for the other part of roughly 13 grams of magnesium what is removed by 10,5 liter of tankwater.
So in my case it is more like 1 gram MgSo4 to 2 grams of MgCl2

 

[Azmanjim]

I found this by the way so Claude has explained it personally

************.com/2010/01/13/interview-claude-schuhmacher-balling-method-fauna-marin/

Q: One of the things where the Balling Light Method differs from the Classic Balling Method is the addition of Magnesium. What´s the need of adding two salts ( Magnesium Chloride-Hexahydrate and Magnesium Sulfate-Heptahydrate) to the same solution in order to obtain a Magnesium solution? If we are using this, we don’t need to dose NaCl free salts?

(CS): The balling light method only uses one magnesium salt. The Sulfate part is not necessary, because it brings to much Sulfate in the system and it brings not the balance which is calculated long time ago in the balling classic Version.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The balling light method only uses one magnesium salt. The Sulfate part is not necessary, because it brings to much Sulfate in the system and it brings not the balance which is calculated long time ago in the balling classic Version.

That is a correct statement if it is trying to say that using magnesium sulfate alone is worse than using magnesium chloride alone. But his current product described on the BRS web site does not take advantage of the fact that reefers can easily use both to obtain the proper balance of sulfate to chloride, yet his product does not. That's what concerns me.

when something us needed to create seawater and used in calcification at variable amounts

Neither chloride nor sulfate are used at all in calcification. They biold up. That is why the ratio is important.

 

[viktor72]

But reefers are already throwing sulfate in their tanks every week with water changes.And FM already calculated it with 5-10% water change,as I understood.But whatabout those that do less changes or not at all?

 

[dkeller_nc]

But reefers are already throwing sulfate in their tanks every week with water changes.And FM already calculated it with 5-10% water change,as I understood.But whatabout those that do less changes or not at all?

Yes, but the amount of sulfate in the change water will never exceed the amount in natural seawater, presuming the salt used to make the change water is properly formulated. And since chloride and sodium is constantly being added but not sulfate, the ratio of sulfate to sodium chloride in the tank water will always be low compared to NSW.

Whether or not this ionic imbalance actually matters to the life in the tank hasn't been studied, AFAIK. But given the lengths that a lot of aquarists go to make their tank water as close to NSW as reasonably possible, and the fact that magnesium sulfate is widely and cheaply available, why wouldn't one simply use it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But reefers are already throwing sulfate in their tanks every week with water changes.

As mentioned above, one is also throwing in the balanced amount of chloride, so a water change will help return sulfate and chloride to the ratio present in the mix, but it may not be enough to solve all such issues.