First Tank with Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[Timfish]

A three tier system systems seems it would be easiest to set up with the dislplay refugium haveing it's own return pump in the sump and just draining to the sump. I'd just use a standard sized tank for a sump and use the entire bottom of the tank for a plenum, I don't see any benefit from dividing up the sump into sections.

 

[kedar301]

A three tier system systems seems it would be easiest to set up with the dislplay refugium haveing it's own return pump in the sump and just draining to the sump. I'd just use a standard sized tank for a sump and use the entire bottom of the tank for a plenum, I don't see any benefit from dividing up the sump into sections.

how do the return pump section etc will work then, i am planning to use Bean Animal Overflow System.

 

[Timfish]

The drain line should be just short of the normal operting water line to avoid air building up in a drain line and cause a gurgling sound as it escapes. An alaternative is to use a 90° pvc sweep with the outlest just below the water line. I use just a piece of filter pad wrapped around the drain line to reduce splashing but as it's open on hte bottom it's not being used to filter out anything.

 

[kedar301]

Yes i got it now. I was confusing Plenum with Refugium haha.
So this is what i am thinking then as a design.
Plenum in main tank
2 stage refugium, top section has mud and the bottom has 6" DSB (gradual approach in mind). sump inlet split in 2. one goes in skimmer section and another in refugium, both has valves for flow control to control how much water goes in skimmer and refugium.
If i have natural filtration option do i need to spare a section for some sort of special filter media sections (i.e. carbon, calcium etc).

if advisable then i would like to remove the mech and carbon filters could possibly instead put ceramic rocks or rubbles to provide more surface area.

In the main tank i am thinking to take double approach, 1 negative space approach and another one is to glue skeleton or reef bones on the back wall. That will create a nice 3D surface on the back wall and also have negative space live rocks in the middle and front area.

 

[Timfish]

Well, I think you're overthinking it and I think you're missing the point of natural systems. FWIW, all I've found I need is just an empty sump with some rock or rubble. Both filter sponges/pads and skimmers, it seems to me, are antithetical as they are altering the natural processes in reefs. Skimmers are segregating and arbitrarily removing a subset of the the microbial stuff in the water, something that in other fields of science has been shown to have severe negative consequences (like the people who die from C. diff infections after antibiotics disrupt thier microbiomes). Since fish poop is a major component of "mud" and is an important part of the carbonate cycle in reef systems using filter sponges/pads/roles strikes me as contrary to the idea of natural systems as well.

Here's some examples of my systems that don't use skimmers or mechanical filtration

And this system doesn't even have a sump

This system used both a cryptic sump and lighted sump with an deep sand bed (without a plenum) and macros but it's important to point out the macros stopped growing in the 2nd year. It also used a calcium reactor to keep up with the coral growth.

 

[kedar301]

thats so brilliant, i would love to avoid any mechanical filtration if at all possible and i agree that sponges and pads are nitrate factories as well. Again skimmer too...if ic an do without one. the idea is to go as much natural as possible. and have a tank that makes its own food.

I am planning a 6ft x 2.5ft wide x 2ft tall main tank and then 5x2x2 sump....i would plant some mangroves in the main tank and also some edible algae etc in either sump or main tank.

 

[kedar301]

Instead of a return pump anyone else used an external canister filter?

 

[griss]

If I remember correctly @OldReefGuy uses canister filters.

 

[kedar301]

But is it used instead of a return pump?

 

[kedar301]

This system used both a cryptic sump and lighted sump with an deep sand bed (without a plenum) and macros but it's important to point out the macros stopped growing in the 2nd year. It also used a calcium reactor to keep up with the coral growth.

What i am thinking then is to have 3 sections in my 5x2x2 ft sump....1st cryptic section, 2nd lighted sump and then a tiny little return pump area.

Now for both cryptic and lighted sumps what do i need.....

Cryptic sump with lots of rock rubbles & lighted sump with DSB+macro algage? and a single plenum to under entire section covering both area of cryptic and lighted.

What are the thoughts?

 

[Timfish]

That's fine and you can use the lighted section for frags as your corals grow. However, I would just do the entire sump as cryptic without any dividers.

 

[kedar301]

entire sump as cryptic means no refugium or mud section. I am not sure about that. however i can do 2 layers in the sump...one floating one with mud and algae and underneath DSB and plenum.

 

[Timfish]

entire sump as cryptic means no refugium or mud section. I am not sure about that. however i can do 2 layers in the sump...one floating one with mud and algae and underneath DSB and plenum.

Why does a mud section have to be lighted? Why are you unsure about using just a cryptic refugium? You can use live rock and base rock to create cryptic areas in a lighted sump/refugium tank on top of a mud bed and without having to use dividers/layers like you've described. What's critical is maintaining the right microbial microbiomes/holobionts corals needto thrive. Fortunately corals are proactive in promoting beneficial microbiomes. Water changes are probably as important as maintaining calcium and alklinity as it's the best way to remove ALL the stuff that can have a negative impact on corals and is an excellent way to siphon out the nuisance alga that is producing a lot of most of the stuff. I would put the emphasis on ease of setup and maintenance.

FWIW, there's a lot of research showing macro alga can have a negative impact on corals. These links are a good place to start to understand the complex relationships in reef ecosystems:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"
What's up with phosphate? by Richard Ross | MACNA 2014

 

[Subsea]

entire sump as cryptic means no refugium or mud section. I am not sure about that. however i can do 2 layers in the sump...one floating one with mud and algae and underneath DSB and plenum.

I think you are over complicating things with three tiered refugium. On 25 year set, 30G mud/macro refugium operated for 20 yrs with the same miracle mud. Five years ago, I turned out the lights and composted tomatoes with Caulerpa; turning mud/macro refugium into cryptic refugium. By installing stacked eggcrate in spongy mud, live rock was elevated above mud crawling with worms.

 

[kedar301]

there is another aspect to it as well....i want to enjoy the life in the refugium as well so would like to keep at least some lit area in the sump.

 

[Subsea]

there is another aspect to it as well....i want to enjoy the life in the refugium as well so would like to keep at least some lit area in the sump.

Because so many differrent sceanario have been discussed,, layout what you have invisioned

entire sump as cryptic means no refugium or mud section. I am not sure about that. however i can do 2 layers in the sump...one floating one with mud and algae and underneath DSB and plenum.

WRONG! Who decides refugiums must have light? A refugium is a refuge from predators.

My 25 year old system with 75G display started out with a 30G Lee Ching mud/algae refugium with three compartment system. First compartment was wet/dry which contained reef rubble, second compartment had miracle mud & Caulerpa and third compartment held return pump. At year 20, I turned out the light and composted tomatoes with Caulerpa, added eggcrate spaces to lift live rock out of the mud, Mud s crawling with worms and cryptic sponges & pods enjoy their cryptic refugium.

 

[Subsea]

there is another aspect to it as well....i want to enjoy the life in the refugium as well so would like to keep at least some lit area in the sump.

I am having trouble understanding the physical layout of your sump with relation to display tank. Is sump not in cabinet under display?

 

[griss]

…composted tomatoes with Caulerpa…[/I]

Please elaborate. I’m having trouble figuring out what tomatoes have to do with reefing. Unless you mean you threw the macros into your compost bin/pile.

 

[Subsea]

Please elaborate. I’m having trouble figuring out what tomatoes have to do with reefing. Unless you mean you threw the macros into your compost bin/pile.

When I discarded macro algae, I composted tomatoes with Caulerpa. Similarly to recycling detritus (organic carbon) into the microbial loop.

 

[griss]

When I discarded macro algae, I composted tomatoes with Caulerpa. Similarly to recycling detritus (organic carbon) into the microbial loop.

Okay, that’s what I thought. But wanted to make sure