First Tank with Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[Subsea]

this is going to be my first marine tank so i will appreciate if i can get some basic info.

Few things from my reading......
1. Live Rock (1kg per US gallon?)
2. Aragonite Sand (how much?)
3. Sump Design? - for natural filtration
4. Skimmer Size?
5. Return Pump size?
6. Wave Make?
7. Tank examples to get some ideas?
8. any other Equipment?

and tons of advise

thanks

Because I am very old school and I am a minimalist with respect to equipment, I focus on biochemistry to recycle nutrients. Also, after reefing for 50 years, I focus on easy to maintain mixed gardens using ornamental & decorative macro algae.

I will make some generalizations. I don’t use protein skimmers as they remove food for the microbial loop which feeds hungry mouths live food from multiple nutrient pathways.

Consider using a reverse flow undergravel filter with aroggonite ( 0.1 - 1.0 mm ) < 2” deep. The plenum will be a cryptic zone. Cryptic sponges convert DOC ( dissolved organic carbon ) into inorganic carbon which is food for the reef and is “natures way“ to “carbon dose”. As a generalization, coral DOC is lipids & proteins and algae DOC is carbohydrate. Any area with low light will house cryptic sponges. I use cannister filters and unlit sumps, just add live rock or reef rubble from a mature tank. I consider bacteria and coralline live rock as incomplete in a natural reef. I suggest diver collected live rock. I get mine from Gulf Live Rock. I also suggest getting their live sand for activating your sandbed with micro fauna & fana. In this manor, your sand-bed using multiple nutrient pathways, converts inorganic nutrients & detritus into live food for hungry mouths.

Gulf Live Rock.com

gulfliverock.com

 

[kedar301]

Because I am very old school and I am a minimalist with respect to equipment, I focus on biochemistry to recycle nutrients. Also, after reefing for 50 years, I focus on easy to maintain mixed gardens using ornamental & decorative macro algae.

I will make some generalizations. I don’t use protein skimmers as they remove food for the microbial loop which feeds hungry mouths live food from multiple nutrient pathways.

Consider using a reverse flow undergravel filter with aroggonite ( 0.1 - 1.0 mm ) < 2” deep. The plenum will be a cryptic zone. Cryptic sponges convert DOC ( dissolved organic carbon ) into inorganic carbon which is food for the reef and is “natures way“ to “carbon dose”. As a generalization, coral DOC is lipids & proteins and algae DOC is carbohydrate. Any area with low light will house cryptic sponges. I use cannister filters and unlit sumps, just add live rock or reef rubble from a mature tank. I consider bacteria and coralline live rock as incomplete in a natural reef. I suggest diver collected live rock. I get mine from Gulf Live Rock. I also suggest getting their live sand for activating your sandbed with micro fauna & fana. In this manor, your sand-bed using multiple nutrient pathways, converts inorganic nutrients & detritus into live food for hungry mouths.

Gulf Live Rock.com

gulfliverock.com

I need to create some sketches of my sumps. Worst case i can start as FOWLR tank and let the life take its course. I am planning wither 1 large sump (5ft x 2ft x 2ft) or 2 sumps. I am also planning to grow some macroalgae as well as mangroves. Removal of skimmer scares me but if you are running a reef tank for 50yrs then i am sure it can be done with full success. I am in the UK so will have to find where i can get the rocks. I am always happy to drive to the shore and get some life straight from the sea.

It would be very helpful if i can get a very basic sketch of your system please. Plus a list of equipment. I am very much into creating a self sufficient with minimal intervention type of setup, which feeds itself.

 

[asmodeus]

and with plenums you want a lot of the sand bed open to filter that is the whole idea the plenum is the filter so having alot of rock in the main isnt smart it will work but you are not getting the full use of it. i hope this is right. i aswell old lol well not really 53 isnt

 

[kedar301]

So if I use negative space concept and then use 5x2xe bottom tank to house macro algae, Miracle Mud, mengroves etc would it work? Also what should be the thickness of the Plenum? And what type of sand I am supposed to be using for Plenum. Would it work with reverse flow UG filter as mentioned in the above post from SubSea?

 

[kharmaguru]

So if I use negative space concept and then use 5x2xe bottom tank to house macro algae, Miracle Mud, mengroves etc would it work? Also what should be the thickness of the Plenum? And what type of sand I am supposed to be using for Plenum. Would it work with reverse flow UG filter as mentioned in the above post from SubSea?

Reverse flow undergravel and a plenum are the same physical construction, the only difference is the flow rate. Plenum is very slow to create the cryptic zones. Reverse undergravel is fast to have maximum biological activity and keep organics from accumulating in the substrate.

If it hasn't been stated this whole thing is a balancing act. You can plan all these natural filtration techniques and not have adequate biology to support them. There's so many people putting chaeto in a brand new system and then wondering why it dies. I prefer to be reactive in this hobby - adding things as they become required. Throwing a bunch of stuff at the system without knowing what is actually going to be needed for balance just wastes money.

 

[kedar301]

Ok so here is my true aim...is to learn as we go. I want the life to come to the tank slowly. Such as microbes first and then slowly learn about them and add more life from there. I am happy to buy some (not all) live rocks brought by divers. Does it matter if I get British local live rocks or one from the reefs? Unfortunately getting a reef rocks here would be very difficult. I can always ask for a soup from an established reef tank as a starter.

 

[Subsea]

I need to create some sketches of my sumps. Worst case i can start as FOWLR tank and let the life take its course. I am planning wither 1 large sump (5ft x 2ft x 2ft) or 2 sumps. I am also planning to grow some macroalgae as well as mangroves. Removal of skimmer scares me but if you are running a reef tank for 50yrs then i am sure it can be done with full success. I am in the UK so will have to find where i can get the rocks. I am always happy to drive to the shore and get some life straight from the sea.

It would be very helpful if i can get a very basic sketch of your system please. Plus a list of equipment. I am very much into creating a self sufficient with minimal intervention type of setup, which feeds itself.

Not sure I can help you with a sketch as I am weak on those skill, but I can do pictures and I am a technical writer due to marine engineering back ground. We used slide rules then.

Lets leave cryptic zone filtration out for now. In general, dissolved organic carbon (DOC) gets cycled by cryptic sponges into inorganic carbon and detritus. Detritus is food for the microbial loop which cycles life food up the food chain. I can link scientific articles but let us see what @Paul B says:

"Mulm" in a Reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can...

www.reef2reef.com

[I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (They love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.]

 

[Subsea]

and with plenums you want a lot of the sand bed open to filter that is the whole idea the plenum is the filter so having alot of rock in the main isnt smart it will work but you are not getting the full use of it. i hope this is right. i aswell old lol well not really 53 isnt

I do not use live rock for biofiltration, even though it does that, I use diver collected uncured live rock to inoculate system with diverse micro fauna and fana. The sandbed is a massive biofilter that provides multiple nutrient pathways to process both inorganic and organic nutrients into live food to feed hungry mouths. Also inoculate sand bed with real live sand detrivores, not just bacteria. I use less than 0.5 lbs per gallon of live rock. Check out 30G mixed garden macro tank. The only filtration is sandbed of 2” aroggonite and canister filter used as high flow cryptic refugium. Aquaclear 70 HOB provides added flow and if required easy to add chemical media. Live food enters display from HOB pod refugium and cannister filter. This system is 18 months mature.

 

[Subsea]

Ok so here is my true aim...is to learn as we go. I want the life to come to the tank slowly. Such as microbes first and then slowly learn about them and add more life from there. I am happy to buy some (not all) live rocks brought by divers. Does it matter if I get British local live rocks or one from the reefs? Unfortunately getting a reef rocks here would be very difficult. I can always ask for a soup from an established reef tank as a starter.

kedar301,
Does more diversity equal more stability, I think it does. While I can not quantify which nutrient pathways are doing the most work, I let the microbes work that out. Not sure what you can get in UK. Definitely use rock from an established healthy tank. In my systems, amphipods, copepods, micro starfish and yes, bristle worms are excellent sandbed detrivores that are easily seen. It is a balancing act that requires knowledge, patience and perception to operate a reef with minimum equipment.

At present, 25yr mature 75G display has a plenum with 0.75” void. A MaxiJet power head flows 300G/Hr up thru 2” aroggonite substrate, PaulB operates his with much less flow. A cannister filter used as high flow cryptic refugium provides flow from left to right at the surface as well as Mag7 refugium pump. Thirty gallon Refugium on bottom was initially LeChing miracle mud macro refugium. I bought it used and never purchased the mud initially at 0.5” deep. In 25 years, detritus has accumulated to 1” deep, feels spongy to the touch and is crawling with worms and things. Five years ago, I removed macro and turned out the lights and added live rocks to establish cryptic refugiums. Cryptic sponges are prevalent on the backside of much of display tank live rock. There are five refugiums associated with this system: 30G cryptic refugium on bottom, 2qt HOB pod refugium on right side, 2G intank overflow to sump below, cannister filter and plenum under sandbed.

 

[kedar301]

What do you mean by the void under 0.75" plenum?

 

[Subsea]

What do you mean by the void under 0.75" plenum?

Void is the space between bottom glass and undergravel filter. Water is pumped into plenum space and up thru substrate.

 

[Subsea]

A very simple two stage setup can have the bases of a complete reef ecosystem in less than 2 weeks.

First establish nitrogen cycle in sandbed using dry aroggonite/bottled bacteria/ammonia feed. Once nitrification cycle is established, add uncured live rock and use reduced lighting to encourage proliferation on live rock. At this time, leave fish out to allow establishment of diverse micro fauna & fana. This is one nutrient pathway in your display tank that recycles nutrients to feed inhabitants. During this time, continue adding diversity of cuc.

 

[Subsea]

I can live with non display sump if that is a big thing to achieve. But please advise me on my first tank.

One dream refugium is to have refugium display above main display. Instead of water draining to sump, an invertebrate display refugium empties live food into display. You could even make a surge dump into display tank instead of using wave makers in display. Just a random thought.
Happy Reefing. It is addicting.

 

[Subsea]

Reverse flow undergravel and a plenum are the same physical construction, the only difference is the flow rate. Plenum is very slow to create the cryptic zones. Reverse undergravel is fast to have maximum biological activity and keep organics from accumulating in the substrate.

If it hasn't been stated this whole thing is a balancing act. You can plan all these natural filtration techniques and not have adequate biology to support them. There's so many people putting chaeto in a brand new system and then wondering why it dies. I prefer to be reactive in this hobby - adding things as they become required. Throwing a bunch of stuff at the system without knowing what is actually going to be needed for balance just wastes money.

I started my first marine aquarium in 1971 as a Galveston Bay biotheme. I had just entered the Marine Engineering program at Texas Maritime Academy located on Pelican Island in Galveston, Texas city limits. I fished & collected on the Pelican Island campus. A first semester technical elective was Chemical Oceanorgraphy 101. Dynamic Equilibrium was the main focus with the athmospher/ocean/substrate as the stage, with carbon dioxide, nitrogen and oxygen going back and forth between water, air and organics.

@kharmaguru,
It is a balancing act and it is quite complex. As I seek to know more, I realize how little I know. A Swedish reefer friend quoted a Danish philosopher who choose to define EXPERT as someone who had made every conceivable error in a field of endeavor. After 50 years of Reefing, I resemble that.
Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
A Cajun Aggie,

PS: Abraham Lincoln defined expert as someone who rode 50 miles to give their opinion.

 

[Paul B]

Can old school and modern methods be combined to achieve the best results for a self sufficient tank?

I am as old school as you can get and I agree about the reverse undergravel filter being the best option for a self sufficient tank that makes it's own food as mine has worked for 50 years running like that and I keep multiple pod eaters like mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and pipefish.l

also does anyone here have a tank or suggestions about doing a tank such a way that it produces its own food cycle?

Take as much water and rock rubble that you can from the sea and don't do anything to it, especially do not medicate or quarantine it as you will short circuit the biological processes and have a cookie cutter tank like many people have but if you want a long lived, self sustaining, no disease tank go with the natural method.

As for rock placement, fish need plenty of "tight" hiding places and keep as much rock off the substrait as you can. I built out of concrete rock supports where very little of my 6' seascape hits the bottom so I can see the back of the glass in many places under the rock. That is very important and will go a long way for the health of the fish as it eliminates stress. If you can always see the fish, they can see you and we all don't look like Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie.

Good Luck.

 

[kharmaguru]

I started my first marine aquarium in 1971 as a Galveston Bay biotheme. I had just entered the Marine Engineering program at Texas Maritime Academy located on Pelican Island in Galveston, Texas city limits. I fished & collected on the Pelican Island campus. A first semester technical elective was Chemical Oceanorgraphy 101. Dynamic Equilibrium was the main focus with the athmospher/ocean/substrate as the stage, with carbon dioxide, nitrogen and oxygen going back and forth between water, air and organics.

@kharmaguru,
It is a balancing act and it is quite complex. As I seek to know more, I realize how little I know. A Swedish reefer friend quoted a Danish philosopher who choose to define EXPERT as someone who had made every conceivable error in a field of endeavor. After 50 years of Reefing, I resemble that.
Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
A Cajun Aggie,

PS: Abraham Lincoln defined expert as someone who rode 50 miles to give their opinion.

And we fully appreciate your contribution and expertise!

I wonder what Lincoln would have athought of all the opinions being expressed via keyboard these days."Only after one million keystrokes on a singular subject can one be considered an expert".

 

[Subsea]

And we fully appreciate your contribution and expertise!

I wonder what Lincoln would have athought of all the opinions being expressed via keyboard these days."Only after one million keystrokes on a singular subject can one be considered an expert".

I should have added to Lincoln’s definition
“And got paid”.

Not sure how “keyboard warriors” get paid.

 

[Subsea]

I am as old school as you can get and I agree about the reverse undergravel filter being the best option for a self sufficient tank that makes it's own food as mine has worked for 50 years running like that and I keep multiple pod eaters like mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and pipefish.l

Take as much water and rock rubble that you can from the sea and don't do anything to it, especially do not medicate or quarantine it as you will short circuit the biological processes and have a cookie cutter tank like many people have but if you want a long lived, self sustaining, no disease tank go with the natural method.

As for rock placement, fish need plenty of "tight" hiding places and keep as much rock off the substrait as you can. I built out of concrete rock supports where very little of my 6' seascape hits the bottom so I can see the back of the glass in many places under the rock. That is very important and will go a long way for the health of the fish as it eliminates stress. If you can always see the fish, they can see you and we all don't look like Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie.

Good Luck.

@kedar301
@Paul B has been Reefing 6 months more than me and I am 6 months older than he. A common belief shared by Paul & I is that stress is the #1 killer of reef fish and quarantine stresses fish “big time”. I used to buy aqua-cultured clown fish until I experienced their weakened immune system, while healthy wild fish have strong natural immunity as they are exposed to all pathogens. The weak wild fish don’t make it and they become someone’s food. The strong survive.

 

[Subsea]

To show more refugium detail on 25 yr setup. Initially, 75G display was set up with 6” dsb over Jaubert plenum. This method proved to be a very effective nitrate export mechanism as denitrification bacteria in low oxygen enviroment broke apart NO4 molecule to scavage oxygen and release a free N2 gas molecule. However, in a mature reef tank the coral will consume the nitrogen. Five yrs ago, I plumbed in a pump to flow into plenum then up threw substrate. At the same time, I reduced substrate to 2” above eggcrate. (light diffuser). On the bottom of 30G mud/algae refugium the macro & light were removed. To convert a sump to a cryptic refugium, simple add live rocks/rubble.

Picture #1 & #2 are on 30G cryptic refugium converted from mud macro refugium. Picture #3 is 40G cryptic refugium used with 5yr mature 120G display.

Note eggcrate used to keep live rock out of mud & detritus.

 

[kedar301]

hi guys sorry i had some personal issues that stopped me from pursuing the dream tank idea or rather delayed for a while. I am now almost back on track.

i liked the idea of Display refugium above main tank but how? Does this mean i will have a 3 tier system? Display Refugium at the top then the main tanks and then sump at the bottom?

I am also thinking to maximise the DSB/Plenum area/volume by using multi tier/stacking system using water to fall from one step to another in a zigzag manner.
See that middle section in the pic attached....

I was thinking to grow mangroves and other edible algae/seaweed in the main tank that can be used as a visual display outside the tank.