Fish die within 24 hours!!!

[nitr8]

I don't see anything wrong with this but I add new fish differently. First, I add all new fish maybe 1 hour before lights out or at least with the white lights off. I always feed the existing fish till saturation before adding a new fish and just after so the new guy can join in. Lastly, I reduce flow considerably (try to match QT for example) for at least 24 hours after adding a new fish. The purpose is to minimize stress to the fish from; aggressive tank mates, additional exercise, new and intense lighting.

Seem to be good arguments and valid points for easier acclimating. I'll give theses a try next time.

It sounds like you've mostly ruled out predators. Based on your answer to 4, my next wild guess is: the clowns are trying to sleep on the MP40s and getting stuck which kills them.

I wouldn't say ruled out because the pistol shrimps are a concern but I think it's a stretch that 2 1" pistol shrimps would take out every new fish added to the tank and do so that quickly every time.

 

[ignatz]

but that would still leave the royal gramma, anthias, and blue spot deaths without explanation.

I don't feel expert enough to guess about those fish. I've raised 1000s of clowns and unfortunately lost many more. I tried to limit my comments to the area where I've got some experience.

That said, a new fish looking for a safe place to sleep at night on a new reef might try to hang around the side of the tank where the MP40 is located especially if it's spent time in a store or a qt tank with little or no rock.

 

[nitr8]

While in general I agree with you, let me share my experience with Brook. I have a multi-tank system that houses 8 adult pairs of clowns. Each pair of clowns has it's own tank and the tanks are all filtered down to 100 micron with a sock. I added a pair of fish on Monday night. On Tuesday morning, one of the new fish seemed listless. On Tuesday night, most of the fish were covered in thin white film. I woke up Wednesday to several large fish laying on the bottom of the tank gasping for air. I treated aggressively for brook and won... but juveniles would not have made it.
The new fish I added were not quarantined because they came from a beautiful healthy reef with tons of other fish showing no signs of distress. I learned that just because some adult fish in a tank aren't showing signs of disease doesn't mean they aren't infected.

But to your point, once one showed signs the rest did as well.

 

[KnownStrangeR]

8/12 no QT: Royal Gramma
9/7 no QT: Wyoming White Ocellaris
B & W Ocellaris
Royal Gramma
9/20 no QT: Royal Gramma
9/25 no QT: Sunburst Anthias
9/27 no QT: Sunburst Anthias
11/10 QT: Wyoming White Ocellaris
11/17 QT: ORA Black Snowflake Ocellaris
11/19 QT: Blue Spot Jawfish

All awesome fish too (you have good taste) , but I also noticed they are all of smaller size. You said you had a small yellow tang. Just how small is he? You said you have never seen any damage to the deceased fish amongst postmortem inspection?

I have one last thing to add, as it seems the possibilities are growing thin here. Do you have a camera you can set up to watch the tank after you acclimate the fish or do you have time to watch once acclimated. I hate to say "use a test fish" but maybe get a small Chromis and add him and watch what happens. Something is clearly going on, and it is rather strange that it's only affecting the newest fish even though your parameters show normal. Possibly something you aren't testing for out whack? Im drawing blanks now.

 

[nitr8]

I don't feel expert enough to guess about those fish. I've raised 1000s of clowns and unfortunately lost many more. I tried to limit my comments to the area where I've got some experience.

That said, a new fish looking for a safe place to sleep at night on a new reef might try to hang around the side of the tank where the MP40 is located especially if it's spent time in a store or a qt tank with little or no rock.

Also I forgot to mention that at night the MP40s are scheduled to reduce to 50% and only one is one at a time in 4 hour intervals. The flow at night is more than cut in half.

 

[BoricuaMojao]

While in general I agree with you, let me share my experience with Brook. I have a multi-tank system that houses 8 adult pairs of clowns. Each pair of clowns has it's own tank and the tanks are all filtered down to 100 micron with a sock. I added a pair of fish on Monday night. On Tuesday morning, one of the new fish seemed listless. On Tuesday night, most of the fish were covered in thin white film. I woke up Wednesday to several large fish laying on the bottom of the tank gasping for air. I treated aggressively for brook and won... but juveniles would not have made it.
The new fish I added were not quarantined because they came from a beautiful healthy reef with tons of other fish showing no signs of distress. I learned that just because some adult fish in a tank aren't showing signs of disease doesn't mean they aren't infected.

Is there a way to confirm at this point?

What would you suggest? pull all fish from DT and treat as suspected of brook?

 

[KnownStrangeR]

I wouldn't say ruled out because the pistol shrimps are a concern but I think it's a stretch that 2 1" pistol shrimps would take out every new fish added to the tank and do so that quickly every time.

I believe Swirly referenced this video earlier about the pistols.

They are super deadly and have seen them first hand take things out. Don;t be fooled by their size.

Follow up with what Iggy was asking, when the white slime appears on the fish your 'current tank mates' are showing signs of this as well or just the new fish every time?

 

[nitr8]

All awesome fish too (you have good taste) ,

My tank would be freakin sweet if they all lived....lol

but I also noticed they are all of smaller size. You said you had a small yellow tang. Just how small is he?

I'd say probably about 3 inches

You said you have never seen any damage to the deceased fish amongst postmortem inspection?

That is correct sir.

I have one last thing to add, as it seems the possibilities are growing thin here. Do you have a camera you can set up to watch the tank after you acclimate the fish or do you have time to watch once acclimated. I hate to say "use a test fish" but maybe get a small Chromis and add him and watch what happens. Something is clearly going on, and it is rather strange that it's only affecting the newest fish even though your parameters show normal. Possibly something you aren't testing for out whack? Im drawing blanks now.

I hate to say it but in my case with this tank, every fish is a test fish. But I will try again maybe with another Gramma to try and pay more attention to what's going on.

 

[nitr8]

I believe Swirly referenced this video earlier about the pistols.

They are super deadly and have seen them first hand take things out. Don;t be fooled by their size.

Follow up with what Iggy was asking, when the white slime appears on the fish your 'current tank mates' are showing signs of this as well or just the new fish every time?

Just the new fish.

 

[ignatz]

@BoricuaMojao - No, I would not treat for Brook unless I _had_ to because the threatment is rough on fish.

I think Matt is on the right track. Here's my suggestion:

nitr8 - Why don't you stop by and I'll give you a clown. Take it home, put it in your display in a breeder box (can be display or sump, whatever) so he can't get picked on by the other fish and can't get sucked into an MP40. If he lives for 24 hours then the tank's parameters are fine and there is no super virulent disease. After that point, you can decide what to do next. I have a pair of clowns that will like if the experiment works.

Before anyone says "Oh that's cruel!"... let me point out that my fish are tank raised and this experiment isn't hurting a reef by using a wild caught fish. Also, tank raised fish are tougher and carry no disease.

 

[KnownStrangeR]

nitr8 - Why don't you stop by and I'll give you a clown. Take it home, put it in your display in a breeder box (can be display or sump, whatever) so he can't get picked on by the other fish and can't get sucked into an MP40. If he lives for 24 hours then the tank's parameters are fine and there is no super virulent disease. After that point, you can decide what to do next. I have a pair of clowns that will like if the experiment works.

Before anyone says "Oh that's cruel!"... let me point out that my fish are tank raised and this experiment isn't hurting a reef by using a wild caught fish. Also, tank raised fish are tougher and carry no disease.

I think this idea is spot on. If the fish will live without issue in the acclimation box then you know it will have to have been a predetor of some degree. If the fish can't make it in the box then you can open that window of possibilities next. This method would cut the 'possabilities' or at least channel them in the right direction/

 

[nitr8]

@BoricuaMojao - No, I would not treat for Brook unless I _had_ to because the threatment is rough on fish.

I think Matt is on the right track. Here's my suggestion:

nitr8 - Why don't you stop by and I'll give you a clown. Take it home, put it in your display in a breeder box (can be display or sump, whatever) so he can't get picked on by the other fish and can't get sucked into an MP40. If he lives for 24 hours then the tank's parameters are fine and there is no super virulent disease. After that point, you can decide what to do next. I have a pair of clowns that will like if the experiment works.

Before anyone says "Oh that's cruel!"... let me point out that my fish are tank raised and this experiment isn't hurting a reef by using a wild caught fish. Also, tank raised fish are tougher and carry no disease.

That sounds like a great idea. Wouldn't feel right about taking one but I'll buy one from you. Shoot me a PM with the types of clowns you have available.

 

[jin7799]

No. It is not normal to lose 50% of your fish in an aquarium after only a few months.

I have never used copper or other medications on fish during QT and have not lost a fish because of this.

Don't know where your pulling these numbers from.

thanks matt,your coral so beautiful,

98% of marine fish headed for the aquarium trade die within a year in the Philippines
By: Natalie Millar
October 22, 2013

Following months of interviews with Filipino marine exporters and hobbyists, WWF-Philippines have found that roughly 80% of all marine fish die before they are sold, and those that survive long enough to be bought by hobbyists are extremely likely to be dead in under a year.

 

[KnownStrangeR]

thanks matt,your coral so beautiful,

thank you for the compliment.

98% of marine fish headed for the aquarium trade die within a year in the Philippines
By: Natalie Millar
October 22, 2013

Following months of interviews with Filipino marine exporters and hobbyists, WWF-Philippines have found that roughly 80% of all marine fish die before they are sold, and those that survive long enough to be bought by hobbyists are extremely likely to be dead in under a year.

I wonder what practices are being used for fish collection and what type of fish were used for the study. Also curios if it was a regional study or what scale really these numbers are being calculated from. Thank you for sharing

 

[ignatz]

thanks matt,your coral so beautiful,

98% of marine fish headed for the aquarium trade die within a year in the Philippines
By: Natalie Millar
October 22, 2013

Following months of interviews with Filipino marine exporters and hobbyists, WWF-Philippines have found that roughly 80% of all marine fish die before they are sold, and those that survive long enough to be bought by hobbyists are extremely likely to be dead in under a year.

Interesting. In my industry, this is what we call FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, Disruption. I did a quick Google search with your title and found several hits from environmental blogs. I read the article and first thing to notice is this:

"
Unregulated capture techniques and improper bagging along with poor transportation and stocking practices result in the high mortalities, according to WWF-Philippines. Only the hardiest fish are likely to survive, such as clownfish (Amphiprion spp), damselfish (Chrysiptera spp), wrasses (Labroides spp) and gobies.
"

Ok... so, 98% are likely to die in one year except clowns, damsels, wrasses, and gobies! Wait, so if you remove all of these fish from the list, what exactly is left coming out of the Philippines?

Additionally, it glazes over the "unregulated capture" bit and it's a Big Deal. Fish collected with cyanide are swimming dead. According to "Philippines in Pictures By Colleen A. Sexton" (Google Books search). The Philippines at one point (circa 2006) were responsible for 80% of tropical fish for the marine industry and 70-90% of them were caught with cyanide. No wonder the study you quoted found such high mortality rates!

Instead of saying "98% of all wild caught fish die within a year." you should say "98% of all wild caught Phillipene fish die within a year if they were collected between X and Y" where X and Y are the study dates. Also, allow for some proper collecting/handling/shipping of fish from the Philippines during the time period. As far as I know, the information is old. Fish from the Philippines are more healthy now due to increased focus on sustainability and regulation.

 

[discocarp]

The Philippines is notorious for cyanide and dynamite (for food fish mostly) collection. The geography is not favorable to good regulation, and corruption is pretty rampant. If you've ever traveled to any of the islands outside the big cities you'd understand why. You just can't cover that much ground. They have been trying to make big strides in ecological issues though, and I think the problem is a lot better than it used to be there. I'd guess that they're still the leaders (or right behind indonesia) in cyanide collection though.

I think 98% losses is probably way, way too high though. That just doesn't pass the smell test.

In any case, none of this is your problem imo. Your white wyomings were not collected with cyanide lol. The "white milky" and labored breathing comment and the speed of deaths makes me strongly suspect a disease over a predator.

 

[nitr8]

In any case, none of this is your problem imo. Your white wyomings were not collected with cyanide lol. The "white milky" and labored breathing comment and the speed of deaths makes me strongly suspect a disease over a predator.

Any idea what disease?

 

[discocarp]

Its really hard for me to say, but I'm wondering if its brook.

 

[eg8r210]

I heard one of my pistol shrimp popping like crazy today but I could see the jawfish sticking its head out of the rocks and it wasnt reacting to the pops. The pistol shrimp also sounded like it was on the opposite side of the tank.

Any idea of what a fish looks like after it has been hit by the pistol shrimp. I wouldn't discount the shrimp at all.

 

[nitr8]

Any idea of what a fish looks like after it has been hit by the pistol shrimp. I wouldn't discount the shrimp at all.

I've been google searching but only saw a pistol shrimp stun a cleaner shrimp. Any links?