Fish Shipment Found after 4.5 days with fish alive

[dnh828]

UPS finally found my shipment of fish from liveaquaria that was supposed to arrive Friday, and was packaged late Thursday. They report the fish are swimming and my wife is going to pick them up now. They are obviously not going to be in great water and there will likely be some ammonia built up in the bag water.

My current best guess at saving them is doing the following:
Opening up all of the bags the moment I'm able to, and any living fish all get put in to a bucket to begin drip acclimation. I don't think I want to add an airstone since that can apparently change PH. Should I add some ammonia detoxifier (I have prime on hand)? I've heard that can decrease available O2 which is a big concern for the fish. I'm guessing that more acclimation time here is better? Give them 2 hours in the bucket? Should I add an airstone after 30 minutes or so?

Any advice is very appreciated.

 

[DougSupreme]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've heard if fish were in a closed bag for an extended period of time, you should remove them from the water as soon as possible neglecting any acclimation. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong

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[Smokey Stover]

Match the temp and salinity of the bag water and you can get them out of the bag.

Once the bag is opened to the air Ammonia will spike.

 

[saveafish]

All my fish I do float and release. YES in the QT tank. But Ive always been told on fish to equalize temp and release.

 

[dnh828]

Smokey I think you are right, after reading a lot it does seem like the ammonia will be high and a long drip acclimation/time in bag water could kill the fish. How do I open the bag to get those readings? Quarantine is already at 1.023, which should be fine according to LiveAquaria's water params on their site.

Matching temp will be harder, should I float the bags or just try to create some new water that matches their temp? My water is in my garage so if the current quarantine water won't work that water will be very hot, I'll have to use some reusable ice packs and stir them around to chill it off.

I will try and take the temp from the outside with an IR thermometer and match from that, but if the water is very hot/cold then I won't be able to match. Are you advocating leaving them in the bag longer and not floating them over floating them for 10-15 minutes?

 

[Smokey Stover]

You can float the bag in the QT for a few minutes to equalize temp then open the bag and test real quick. Usually you'll only need to add a little top off fresh water to the QT.Hopefully the fish are strong enough. GL

 

[hkgar]

DO NOT do drip acclimation. Match salinity. LA ships at between 1.017 and 1.019 and temp acclimate

this http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1959576

 

[Smokey Stover]

I always test bag water,I do that even from the LFS, I've found some that came in water that was as low as 1.019, The shock of going into full 1.025 will do more damage than good.

 

[dnh828]

Assuming they are actually alive past the bag float and adding them to the water, I should be sure to add them to the water and then leave them in a dark tank for a full day right? Should I attempt to feed the fish after a few hours since it will be a long time since they have eaten? Would adding amquel to the new quarantine water do anything if I don't add any of the bag water to the tank?

 

[Smokey Stover]

Low light would probably be ok, As long as they have some hiding places.
If they're swimming ok after a little while I'd feed something like enriched baby brine shrimp or mysis. What kind of fish do you have?

Oh, shouldn't need amquel or prime if QT is good.

 

[dnh828]

Update on fish

Update on fish

So I'm home with the fish that the wife kindly picked up.

The few I can see, the royal gramma and the flame wrasse, are swimming pretty actively. I was in the middle of TTM quarantining other fish that I bought locally, since I thought these fish were officially lost (LiveAquaria in fact already refunded me).

My makeup water is 1.023 SG and is too hot (its ~ 87 degree water from my garage). I rinsed off one of those reusable ice packs from shipping and have it in the secondary tank to cool it down to ~ 78 degrees. I'll include some pictures once I start adding the fish and give updates on how they are doing. Current plan is to float them, and 15 minutes later crack open 1 bag and test the SG and adjust with DI water as needed. Once SG is good and if temp is still close enough fish get put in by pouring them in to a small colander I have.

I'll be keeping them in very dim light, my QT tanks sit in my living room next to the big tanks but since I now have 2x the fish I intended to I'll be moving everyone to a 40g breeder and will switch from the TTM quarantine to a cupramine prophylactic quarantine method. I'll be waiting a week before I start any copper treatment though and I'll creep up the level gradually as I don't want to shock the fish.

More updates soon.

 

[dnh828]

So there were 5 fish in this order.

Royal gramma
Blue tang
Yellow tang
Carpenters flasher wrasse
Flame angel

All going in to my 140 5 ft long reef tank.

The blue tang was DOA, I wish I had used his bag to test the salinity but instead I used the wrasse's bag.

I found the salinity was 1.010, so I had to remove about half of the water from the new quarantine tank and then add in RO/DI water, which then raised the temperature so I had to stir in some more ice packs to drop it down. It probably took ~ 8 minutes to drop the temp down, and the whole time the wrasse was getting air in his ammonia filled bag. I think that shock is probably going to kill him: hes still breathing for now but is barely swimming at all.

The other 3 fish (flame angel, royal gramma and yellow tang) all seem to be doing fine for now. They are swimming and breathing normally after an initial minute or two near the surface. I imagine there was a pretty big PH difference considering they had been in their bags for about 5 days now. I'm going to top off that tank with saltwater and do small water changes over the next couple of days, because they will need to eventually join the rest of my quarantine.

I had velvet nearly wipe out my previous tank after not quarantining long enough or careful enough and was going to be restocking my tank (that only currently contains 2 maroon clownfish and a mandarin goby). This is definitely more stress than I prefer when getting in new fish but I'm cautiously optimistic I'll get a few survivors from this shipment. Not sure if there is anything more I can do for the wrasse, I'm guessing I have to leave him alone and pray.

Thank you for all your advice, I'll be posting an update in a few days with how they are doing. If you have any criticisms about my QT set up or advice I'd love to hear it. There is a screen top not shown in the picture, and the powerhead is temporary as I'll be putting in two airstones instead (but the mini powerhead is what I had handy).

 

[brianbrainstein]

1.01 doesn't sound right for the salinity. Did you check any other bags?


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[dnh828]

1.01 doesn't sound right for the salinity. Did you check any other bags?


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So to be clear that is what my calibrated but very cheap chinese refractometer says the salinity is. I can tell you that it is accurate at 1.023, but the slope is probably quite off from there (what I'm reading as 1.010 could easily be 1.016 depending on how off the slope of the refractometer). I had to make my water match theirs with my refractometer, not necessarily make it an actual 1.010 SG.

For what its worth, I do think that I'm somewhat close on the salinity. I had to take out what felt like more than half of my water to drop the salinity down to 1.010 from 1.023. I checked all of the bags and they all read the same.

 

[OrionN]

Cannot have cheap essential equipment like a refractometer. I doubt very much that the water shipped from LA is 1.010. If the real salinity the fish shipped in was 1.017-1.019, then you really compromise the chance of these stressed fish.

Best of luck to you and your fishes.
Keep us update.

 

[dnh828]

Cannot have cheap essential equipment like a refractometer. I doubt very much that the water shipped from LA is 1.010. If the real salinity the fish shipped in was 1.017-1.019, then you really compromise the chance of these stressed fish.

Best of luck to you and your fishes.
Keep us update.

My quarantine salinity matches the tested salinity with my refractometer. I agree that a cheap refractometer won't be accurate across the entire range and the reading of 1.010 is probably inaccurate. But what matters is 1. being able to tell if I have the correct 1.023 salinity and 2. being able to match salinity between different water sets.

A very cheap refractometer when calibrated with 1.023 calibration fluid will tell if you if are high, low, or dead on 1.023. It will also, with fair accuracy, tell you if two water samples are the same specific gravity. If two samples read the same on a refractometer, even if its cheap, it means the water is very close in salinity. It doesn't mean the number you read is the actual specific gravity, but it does mean that the two samples are the same.

I know I need a better refractometer and if you would like to recommend one I'm all ears, but this refractometer works for my purposes (if I was doing hyposaline treatment or similar I would invest in a better unit).

 

[Smokey Stover]

Keep an eye on ammonia levels, Point the PH slightly towards the surface for agitation. Water changes... The usual stuff,hopefully they'll eat,and poop normaly. The worst is behind you now,Good job,Good luck.

 

[dnh828]

The flame angel keeps gasping at the surface. The other two fish seem pretty peaceful, and the wrasse is in the corner still breathing but I assume dying. I added an airstone but the flame angel seems to be having a rough time. I wonder if his gills were burned during the extended shipping - by the time I got them out of the bag it had been 5 days. I assume there is nothing more I can do? Is there anything I can do to assist the flame angel or just wait and hope?

 

[Uncle99]

Both may have been damaged beyond repair, you should know soon enough.

If these fish are in a place like QT, you could lower the salinity to 1.018 - 1.020 which will make respiration easier for all. This would stay this way until all are either normally active and eating or dead and removed. Just keep in mind that salinity changes downwards can be done quickly, but going up, must be done very slowly, I use an increase rate of .002 per day.

Make sure you are regularly exchanging water in your QT

BTW, I have a cheap refractometer, a cheap hydrometer and they perform just fine.
If I ever get an odd reading, I just retest.

In addition, I have run mixed reef tanks for more than 25 years, without all the expensive equipment other than a tank, a heater, a light, and water. 10% WC every week, all parameters reflect NSW daily.

 

[dnh828]

Right now I'm doing small daily water changes on my 2 20 gallon quarantine tanks. I bought a new set of fish after this one was officially lost/refunded. I'm going to be moving everyone in to a 40 breeder and use some seeded sponge filters (I keep one in my sump and will add another to the 40b) to assist with ammonia, but I imagine I'll need to do water changes every 2 days with that many fish in a 40.

The flame angel was probably burned/harmed by the ammonia and time in the bag but has settled down a lot. The yellow tang is still being shy (which is normal in my experience when you first get them) and the gramma has never shown a sign of being worse for the wear. The wrasse is definitely dead as of this morning, not sure if theres anything else I could have done.

I bought another yellow tang locally after the first was lost in shipping, which is currently in another 20 gallon tank (remember I was originally doing the TTM for quarantine). I expect the two might fight if I put them in my 40b, or long term in my 140. Some people claim that keeping 3 works but I think thats probably too many fish for my eventual tank. I assume the best option is to sell the other tang to someone local? Would it be possible for me to attempt putting them in the same tank once the salinity is matched or is that 100% going to result in them fighting to the death?