Flame Angel Origins (Centropyge loriculus)

[krdill]

I've been considering adding a Flame to my 220gal, but have been hearing mixed reviews about which "location" to buy from (Hawaii, Marshall, Christmas, Cook).

Which region have most people had success with recently?

Likewise what issues have you had with the region that your Flame did come from?

Any info would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[Chibils]

In general, specimens coming from Hawaii and Marshall are in great health (can't comment on the other locations, they may or may not be worse), but the ones I've seen coming out of Vanatu have more of the tiger pattern (lighter yellow/orange sides with more full, long black stripes) and less blue tipping.

 

[krdill]

Thanks Scott.

Anybody else?

 

[LargeAngels]

TRUE Hawaiin flame angels are VERY hard to come by. Unless you contacted the diver in Hawaii and got it directly from him don't believe it if it is marked as Hawaiin. Vanuatu, Cook, Christmas or Marshall are all good.

 

[krdill]

Thanks for the warning LargeAngels.

 

[zemuron114]

hawaiian flames are deep and very rare. I have had a handful in the past and all did very well and are simply the best Flame angel you can find color wise (all bright red, little black lines and metalic blue tips)

majority of the flames in the US trade are from christmas and Marshalls which come through Hawaii (wholesalers sometimes list them as Hawaiian flames which they are not) Christmas flames and Hawaiian flames are the 2 best IME you can buy. Marshalls have much more orange to them and IME do not fare as well in the long run as christmas (still don't know why) Cooks are more yellow (but do well) and vanuatu as largeangels said have the more tiger pattern but are more orange through the midsection.

the only problem is trying to find out which flame came from where. If you are ordering from a LFS pick the one that eats and retains it color. If it looks washed out or pale do not buy it as it will not last much longer without some serious meds and care.

if you are ordering from online, then you should specify you want a christmas island flame out of Hawaii and most online guys now adays have connections in Hawaii.

 

[copps]

To show what Zem is talking about, here's a shot of my true Hawaiian flame... BRIGHT red straight through... and again very rare in the industry... fortunately they come into Hawaii by the planeloads (almost literally!) from Christmas where they are common, so the species is not specifically targeted in Hawaii...

 

[impreza619]

the xmas island ones seem to have a more orange color than those deep hawaii ones. i have yet to see a true hawaii one in a LFS in my area, just a bunch that claim to come from hawaii.

 

[LargeAngels]

Like zemuron114 stated many fish from the Pacific Islands go through Hawaii so many say they come from Hawaii. I see flames, goldflakes and black tangs listed as Hawaiin all the time, even though Goldflakes and black tangs don't exist in Hawaii.

 

[copps]

Looking at the entire spectrum of flame angels and variants... Christmas ones are on the red side relative to the others... but when compared with some true Hawaiian ones they pale in comparison...

Also, the population of released Christmas flames on Oahu probably outnumbers the TRUE Hawaiian flames there, and they're believed to be breeding into the Hawaiian population there... Ask any Oahu diver how many Hawaiian flames they see a year and you're likely to get a number in the single digits, even for divers that make a career of it... the population of them is much greater along the Kona Coast of the Big Island, where most come from... although they are still very rare...

99.99% of LFSs you go to will have no clue on this... if you ask them for a Hawaiian flame they'll order from their LA wholesaler what they think to be for the reason Large Angels mentioned...

 

[zemuron114]

john, thats a nice hawaiian flame! I'm trying to find it a mate

i've only seen a handful of really nice Hawaiian flames, others look a lot like christmas or even marshalls.

 

[copps]

Yeah... that's why I say "Christmas ones are on the red side relative to the others... but when compared with SOME true Hawaiian ones they pale in comparison"... I read some scientific journal article looking at the DNA of flames, and the Christmas and Hawaii ones were not noticeably different by DNA markers or something along those lines... I'll have to check... but I think everyone can agree that some Hawaiian flames are just off the charts red!

 

[lilalove]

I'm not sure where my flame came from....it is bright orange, with yellow where the black stripes are, and purple tips in it's tail. Very pretty, eats like a hog, has never touched coral....but it is quite ornery. 2 plus years in my 50 gallon, now the boss of the 180.

 

[glassbox-design]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13115612#post13115612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
I read some scientific journal article looking at the DNA of flames, and the Christmas and Hawaii ones were not noticeably different by DNA markers or something along those lines... I'll have to check... but I think everyone can agree that some Hawaiian flames are just off the charts red!

Hi John,

A very good article. They state that the red morph is also found near Johnston Atoll... any evidence of them coming from that area for the hobby? Is collecting permitted?

 

[zemuron114]

there is no collection stations in the johnston atoll. I believe it is illegal to collect there now along with midway and the rest of the NWH islands. Im not 100% positive, but i think johnston is included. There are also interruptus there as well

 

[glassbox-design]

Hi Zemuron,

Thanks, that was how I understand it as well.

 

[copps]

Yeap... collecting at Johnston is prohibited... you can't even go there without a permit... not near or part of the NWHI though... it's only two miles long and a half mile wide... and was naturally just 10% that size before we decided to dredge and put a runway on it... it was recently completely evacuated and left to the birds as a sanctuary... so C. nahackyi could live in peace... except for the occasional collection that resulted in the one on display in the world at the Waikiki Aquarium... alot of Hawaiian "endemics" are found on this tiny atoll 800 miles away...